Love Your Sales

Unraveling Sales Mysteries with AI

In this engaging episode of Love Your Sales, Leighann Lovely interviews Gillian Utesch, the founder of Broken Glass Ceiling Marketing. They delve into the transformative power of AI in modern business, exploring its role in automating mundane tasks and enhancing human connections. Gillian shares her journey from a traditional marketing career to becoming an accidental AI enthusiast, emphasizing how AI has allowed her to focus on what she loves and connect more deeply with clients. Leighann and Gillian also discuss the common fears surrounding AI and how it can actually free up time for more meaningful interactions. This episode is a compelling exploration of how embracing AI can lead to greater efficiency, innovation, and personal fulfillment in business.
 
Contact Gillian
Email - gillian@brokenglassceilingmarketing.com
Website – www.brokenglassceilingmarketing.com 
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gumoney/
 
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Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
 
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
 
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Leighann Lovely: This podcast is presented by Genhead. Genhead leverages AI so small and medium sized businesses can find their ideal clients to make more sales. Other companies talk about AI, but we are using it every day to drive down marketing costs and increase revenue. Learn more at genhead. com. That's genhead. com. 
Another episode of love yoUr sales today.
Leighann Lovely: I am joined by Jillian Utesh. Jillian is the owner and founder, of Broken Glass Ceiling Marketing. I'm thrilled to have her. Jillian is an entrepreneur, accidental AI enthusiast, and a visionary behind Broken Glass Ceiling Marketing.
With a career spanning two decades in marketing, she built a reputation for her innovation. Innovative approach to [00:02:00] create connections in a digital world. Her story is one of reinvention and resilience. After realizing the traditional rules of business didn't work for her, Jillian built a company that tackles the tasks most of us dread.
Oh yes. Most of us dread, uh, data mining, outreach, and engagement. So entrepreneurs can focus on what they love. Her work combines. Cutting edge AI technology with the timeless power of human storytelling, providing that the future of marketing is both innovative and deeply personal. And I absolutely love that.
Obviously, as you know, me and my company also are very into that. So I'm excited to have this conversation, Gillian, about, you know, your story and, uh, you know, your career. So welcome to the show.
Gillian Utesch: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to share my journey along with the destination I've accidentally arrived at and hopefully it resonates and helps someone else.
Leighann Lovely: [00:03:00] Yeah, absolutely. And so tell me where, you know, I, the first question I always want to ask an entrepreneur is why, what made you, drove you, led you into starting, you know, this journey.
Gillian Utesch: It was kind of multifaceted. I did not sit down and say, what do I want to do? I want to be an entrepreneur and I want to do that.
Via a software as a service company, there was not that much linear thought put into it at all. I simply followed my heart that was driving me away from things I didn't want to do. I wanted to focus my day and that's, that's as, as detailed as the original business plan was. My heart is drawing me away from things I don't want to do.
And so then as time went on, I realized what those tasks were, and that was kind of phase one. And then phase two was, oh golly gee, I don't [00:04:00] want to do these tasks. And then phase three was, how can I do them differently?
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. And you know, when we're driven by our heart's desire, I think that we, we go in full blown passionate about it.
And there's no stopping us. Absolutely. I mean, passion drives the true success, you know, of, of entrepreneurs. You know, I couldn't run a business, that I did not truly believe in and nobody can run a business. I don't think that they truly don't believe in. And when you find that sweet spot of like, wow, now I'm, now I'm doing something I'm passionate about and it's helping somebody.
Gillian Utesch: Wow. That feels good, right?
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. That feels really good. Yeah. When I get that call or that text or that email from a client, that's like, Oh my gosh, do you know what just happened? Like I, and I remember the first time that one of my clients text me and said, I've [00:05:00] increased my sales or I'm getting, I'm actually getting.
leads from my marketing. Like I'm, I have, I had somebody from New York buy my product and I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's, that's amazing. And I'm like, so it's, it's working the way that we wanted it to work, you know? And for me, I'm like, well, that's, that's what it's supposed to do. And, but for them, they're like, how are they finding me?
What is, what are we doing? And it's like, well, this is, this is. What it's supposed to be doing, but you, I mean, the first time that that happened, I kind of went, Oh my gosh, why was I ever afraid to do this? Because of course it works if you do it, right? So let's talk about you. Let's talk about your business.
Let's talk about after you figured out what you wanted to do. Where, where did you start? Where did it go from there?
Gillian Utesch: I still struggle to [00:06:00] identify as a software as a service company because I never consciously set out on that plan. My conscious plan. Once I realized the 3 things I kind of shared at the beginning, I thought, okay, how can I do these to get to where I want to go, which in that moment it was.
Rebuilding my marketing company. I had a great career, a great opportunity with marketing, loved my, loved my clients, loved my interactions. But what was most beautiful about it was I got to spend my days actually doing the work of the work because over time I had. Accumulated referrals, I'd accumulated longstanding clients, so I didn't have to datamine.
I didn't have to cold call. I didn't have to send seven emails to get a conversation. All I had to do was pick up the phone and go, Hey girl, how's it been? How's your baby doing? Oh, I know your dog was in the vet. Now let's talk about your project and your timeline for next month. That's how I like doing business and so realizing that there was a big gap between [00:07:00] where I was in 2021 and where I'd been in 2020, realizing that gap and then realizing that I don't want to do these tasks because it just, it felt visceral is the only word I can think of.
I realized, okay. My clients have scattered to the four corners of the earth. They're working from a hammock in Haiti. I can't just meet them at Starbucks to network. I can't just, I can't rebuild how I rebuilt after oh eight. And it took me a while to come to that realization. Then it took me a while to come to the realization that I don't want to do what I.
Now need to do that's different. And then it was golly, gee, what do I do? Because AI wasn't really a thing. Then we didn't have chat GPT. We didn't have open AI. It was essentially a fidget spinner that we couldn't see. And that's exactly the amount of credibility I gave it. Why would I ever use technology or this fidget spinner to do this kind of work?
It's not going to have a human touch. It's not going to be creative [00:08:00] storytelling. It's going to feel icky. It's just not going to work. And it wasn't a moment. Of absolute just desperation back against a wall. I had nowhere to go, but down. So I was like, well, you know, let's give it a go and see if it'll work.
And then fast forward about 18 months. Our latest tool has been online over the last 9 months has been open for public subscription. Hearing your story, talk about how your services, your products, your business can change people's lives. I never thought building something like this beyond just business development, but we've had folks use it to get jobs.
We've had them because they were sending in 3000 resumes that were all getting kicked back from AI. And they were using this to reach out, engage and network. With people at businesses that they actually wanted to work at. And so when a job came up, it's, Oh, Hey buddy, go, go ask Kevin. He's got the rec on that.
So that has been a very unexpected benefit of a very unexpected journey.
Leighann Lovely: That's [00:09:00] amazing. So, you know, and it's, and it's funny, your, your bio that I, you know, just read to introduce you accidental AI enthusiast. So now you're, you're in it, you're discovering what AI has the ability to do. And, and in many, in some circles, This is a very controversial topic, like, Oh, AI is going to take over the world, you know, it's going to take my job.
We've all, we've heard all of this before. You know, back in, in the days that, you know, my dad was working and I'm growing up and you hear that, oh, they're, they're creating robots to do our jobs. Which now, you know, we have robots. All over in manufacturing that are doing, you know, the mundane tasks, and it never eliminated people's jobs.
It just created more jobs of people who had to design the robots and better paying jobs. And so we hear the same thing now happening today is, Oh, my God, AI is going to [00:10:00] take over the world's going to take my job. I'm no longer. It's not true, in my opinion, because AI is only as smart as the person who's programming it and telling it to you.
You know, what to do, how to do it, what algorithms to look at, you know, what information, how to read that information, you know, until somebody actually plugs in a real brain that allows it to think for itself. I'm not afraid of it. I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not one of those doomsdayers with like, well, one day it's going to learn how to think for it.
Every single thing that it does, somebody has to program behind the scenes in order for it to work, right? Yeah. So let's I love talking about AI. I think a lot of people out there like talking about AI on the other side of the fence of who aren't afraid of it yet or aren't not yet who aren't afraid of it.
But so let's talk a little bit more about specifics in what, you know, why And how you [00:11:00] accidentally fell in love with this through your journey and how it specifically is able to help in BizDev.
Gillian Utesch: I love that you start with fear because that is the number one, if I am talking to someone in line at Starbucks, my aunt Sally, or even a business, a fellow business owner, fear is always the first word I hear when they think about AI.
And I think that's for a couple reasons. It's. Invisible to us. It's zeros and ones that are floating around around us. So that alone makes it okay. Fear of the unknown. I can't physically see this. I can't physically put it in a cage if it gets crazy. So I think there's that just human fundamental, um, interaction part of it.
But then there is also, yes. The fear of it's going to take my job. It's going to take over the world. And I love the analogy that you use bringing it back to robotics because that's a that's a big kind of line is is [00:12:00] I think there's a big line between AI and robotics. Those are 2 very separate. We could go on, but you really did a great job blending them and saying that we're not trying to take people's jobs.
We're trying to allow people the time and bandwidth to do what is unique to them. Now, I'm not saying that putting a car tire, putting a tire on a car on the assembly line is not a unique thing, but I do hold in my heart that that person is given the chance and opportunity could give a bigger gift to the world.
And it's very similar to that with AI and not to, not to say it in a, in a weird way, but
Gillian Utesch: I have realized I've been able to give a lot more to the world because I was historically coming home from work, exhausted, and I felt satisfied with that exhaustion because I had worked all day, I'd eaten lunch at my desk, I'd cut my bathroom breaks down to 90 seconds.
I had truly worked everything I had, Not realizing I hadn't worked everything I [00:13:00] had because 20 percent of what I had done, I didn't need to do. It wasn't unique to my, to my human talent. So what could I have done with that 20 percent capacity if I wasn't using it for essential but repetitive mundane tasks?
So once I realized, and that was never the agenda. When I was kind of making my pros and cons list of, okay, how do I move forward from here? How do I, how do I rebuild after COVID? Never once did I put on my paper, I want to have more mental bandwidth so that I can be an even better version of myself. And it seems a little odd to say in one sentence, we're going to use technology.
Especially an invisible technology that in my situation acts as a digital version, a digital replica of ourselves. I'm going to use this to be a better human. It just, that part really has a disconnect for people, but it's 100 percent true.
Leighann Lovely: Well, it is. And here's, here's a perfect. So I have an Alexa. I don't want to [00:14:00] say that too loud.
She'll start talking to me, but I have, you know, I have that in my house, right? And here's just a simple example of how much more efficient we are as a family with having that in my house. Now, some people are diehard against that. They're like, Oh, you know what? She's listening to everything we say. She knows everything.
You know, every time we talk about, Okay. X, Y, Z, then I get an advertise on my phone. Okay, well, yes, so there is, there's that, and it's creepy and I don't like it, but it is, it's the way of the world. You know, if I search on my phone for a bicycle, all of a sudden I get advertisements for bicycles. Yes, that's a real thing.
It's an algorithm that once you've searched something, all of a sudden it's picked up somewhere. And now I'm getting ads for Can I, can I overcome that? Sure. I can look on incognito every time I look on my phone. Right. But I do have in my house. So when I, when my husband and I are flitting around the kitchen, I don't have a grocery list that I write things down.
I tell Alexa, I'm saying that quietly so [00:15:00] that she doesn't start talking to me. I tell her to put something on the grocery list. Right. And then I If my husband needs to stop at the store, he can look up on that app really quick of all of the other things that we need and pick them up. He doesn't have to go, can you take a picture of the grocery list so that I know what else we have.
It is, it makes my life so much easier. That is technology that is being used all, like, all the time. If I tell her to turn on the lights, she can turn on the lights that are connected to her in my house. That's just a small piece of technology that's making people's lives more efficient and easier.
Now, I know people on the other side of the, of, you know, the fence who are like, Absolutely, never have it in my house, won't. We've all seen the horror movies now that are coming out with, you know, the AI people or the AI technology. Yes, there's always a worst case scenario and the truth somewhere in the middle.
On how more efficient [00:16:00] we can become as a society and we have seen this coming on from the day that I got my first cell phone and I'll date myself and age myself now because I was like 19 19 years old when I got my first and it was like a brick, you know, the big huge phone where you're like, yeah, I got my cell.
I have to buy a bigger purse in order to carry it. But that the technology is just yeah. It's ever evolving, and that's the way it's supposed to be. As a society, this is just the next step. And by the time my children, my child, I don't have, I have one. By the time my child is my age, I mean, I'm gonna guess that her entire house is going to be Walk into a room and the lights will go on.
That already exists. It's just not for the general. We now have electrical cars. There's going to come a time where those electrical cars you just literally get into and they're going to be smart to who's in the car based on the smell, weight, what, I don't know. The [00:17:00] point being is that in a world where we're constantly running from one end to the next all the time, And we created this world, by the way, efficiencies are a gift.
They're absolutely a gift that we can, if we can give it to somebody to say, Hey, this will cut down two hours of having to type up an email because you can now just say, Hey, whatever that tool is called, please compose an email to so and so based on our previous communication. And that can look at that and see the style of communication we have, the tone of communication we've had in the past, and it can appropriately do that in a matter of the snap of a finger.
How much more efficient would we be?
Gillian Utesch: When you talk about efficiency, that makes me think about time.
Leighann Lovely: Yes.
Gillian Utesch: And when we come back to, and I [00:18:00] say come back to because, Oddly, through my AI journey, I have come back to so many basic things. Come back to basic as in your network, and it's all in who you know. It's not about how many times you post, and do you post at the exact magical times for each platform, and does your content have this exact set of magical words that tickle the left brain of this person, the right brain of this person.
That's not it at all.
Gillian Utesch: It is completely back to basics and with the efficiency comes time. If someone said, Hey, you can have a million dollars, but you have a week to live. Wow, no one's going to pick the money because it life is so much more than that. And that just resonates back to as driven as we are as a society, especially here in the U.
Everyone would still pick time. So starting from that very basic, that very basic feeling. It makes sense that we would choose time in our day over the fear of [00:19:00] something that we don't understand or that we can't see. And so I have loved embracing the journey and learning just from the examples that you gave.
But then on the AI side, how can these take, how can AI take tasks off my plate that give me time to either spend with my family? Right. Or time to simply think, and these weren't luxuries that we had before. The luxury of taking time to, I would never have blocked off time on my calendar time to think, you just don't do that.
And like you would've, I would. You would've chased me with a butterfly net if I'd done that. And so, but now it has naturally progressed to that. And with that has been the very. unexpected results of, wow, what can I do as a human? What greater impact can I have by utilizing these tools that aren't super scary?
Leighann Lovely: Right, right. And, and time has become, we've, to your point, time has become such a finite thing these days that, and you're [00:20:00] right, if any, we're trying to, even employers are trying to shove more work down people's throats in less time. That's not the way to live, but being more efficient in the time is.
And the more stuff, and again, being a company who is again, all about creating processes for automation of what can we eliminate from the daily tasks that are mundane, that are repeatable, that you literally can just automate and be like, yeah, we, that process is no longer has to be manually done, gives somebody back their time.
Now. The human element of this is take that time to yourself. Don't try to shove another task in there.
Gillian Utesch: What I think too, I'm so glad you brought that up. That enters the second fear that people have with AI. The first fear is, Oh, I can't see it. I can't [00:21:00] feel it. It's going to take over the world, take over my job.
The second fear is. An expansion on the first one. Oh, gosh, is it going to take over my job? And now I'm going to have to do something better. I'm going to have to rise to the occasion to come up with truly unique ideas. And I think that realization scares people more than the fear of AI taking over.
Leighann Lovely: But the right people, the people who truly want to embrace this, that fear, that's, that's not even a fear that would enter my mind is thinking, Oh my gosh, like this can help trigger so many more brilliant ideas. If utilized in the proper way, but I agree with you, those who like to sit and I like to put people in the in different buckets, you have the people who just they go to work to make a paycheck, they don't have any interest whatsoever in what [00:22:00] they do.
It's just a job. They show up. They do their job, don't care necessarily about how well, it's literally the paycheck, right? They're punching in, they're punching out, they're going home. Then you have the people who, you know, they're, they're early usually in their career. They want to suck up all of the information.
They're still navigating and they're, they're interested. And then you have the, that, that, those people who rise to the top. And those are the, you know, the one percenters, the few, the few, you know, I usually, you see them. very quickly climb up that ladder. Usually at some point start talking about like the entrepreneurial journey, the, those are the ones who are like, are embracing.
Any and every change, rolling with it, learning, the life learners, the ones who really, those are the ones who, that fear doesn't exist within them, because they're like, what's next? [00:23:00] I can't wait to take it on. I, I really am excited about this. You know, those, the people in the middle are like, yeah, I'm excited about it, but you know, what, what, what ifs?
And they question it. We need every single one of those people. Absolutely, positively, we need them all. We need the skeptics. We didn't have the skeptics. They would be like, Oh, we're just going to run with everything. Okay. Well, we, we, we need, we need to balance this out a little bit because it would be chaos if everybody was just like, yeah, let's just jump in, you know, every single time, but those, we have those groups of people who are like, yeah, let's absolutely take on.
And I forgot the point of this, but, Yeah. The lifelong learners, there, there isn't, there's not the fee, because they take the time to educate themselves. And when there is an unknown, they try to discover all there is about that unknown, and then they'll try it. And they'll continue to try [00:24:00] and continue to learn.
And that's why I don't, I don't have that fear
because I educate myself.
Gillian Utesch: I'm glad you mentioned educate because there is so much knowledge and misknowledge, we'll say, about AI, what it can do, where it's going, and it changes very quickly. Even though I'm in the field and I try to stay hip on it, there's a lot changing. And it's so, I am not, I did not build my software.
I built the idea of my software and I designed it in Canva and I then gave it to someone and said, make this picture a sandcastle so I can see how that, how that can kind of correspond. But I forgot where I was going now, my ADD kicked in. I used to keep a whiteboard on my computer so I could quickly jot stuff down to keep my, to keep my thought process in.
Oh, I, I have, I have lists.
Leighann Lovely: You should see this desk. There's there's it's covered. [00:25:00] It's absolutely covered with lists upon lists upon lists. But you create, you created the idea. And that's all it takes, Jillian, is that there's somebody out there who has that sparked with the idea of what could be. And then somebody smart enough to build it.
But now I have the question here. You, you built it. You've
Gillian Utesch: accidentally,
Leighann Lovely: accidentally. You built it based on what you didn't want to have to do anymore.
Gillian Utesch: There were tasks. I knew were necessary, but I did not, did not, could not make myself do them. And as I drug my heels along month after month, my business just continued to just spiral down, spiral down until it was finally at the bottom.
And I started looking at AI was, was very, very new. It was very kind of underground at the time. I felt like it was the [00:26:00] verge of the floppy disk. Like, Oh, you can save something and take it to another computer. Like it was that alien to me. And. All this, all the offerings I found, they just did not feel like me.
They felt cringey. It didn't feel authentic to how I would do that task as a human, and I would, that then left me still at the same impasse. I didn't wanna do it myself, and I didn't wanna use these tools to do it either. Well, now what? Now? Now, where do you go? Okay, if I had a wand and I could fix this, what would it look like?
 I can't. Take my phone and stream to my apple TV. I am not techie, but I knew the problems I had. I knew how I wanted to construct the solution. I then just needed a partner who could build that. And that kind of comes back to the human connection. It took both of us to work together with our individual human uniqueness to build this software to do this task.
It wasn't something that I just did. All by myself.
Leighann Lovely: Right. And [00:27:00] that's where it, this all ties back to the human, the human condition, this thing that we're seeing all desperately trying to grasp onto, right? Is that I can sit in this room that I'm sitting in right now in my home office. I'm completely alone in my home office, but I can connect to hundreds of thousands of people all over the world if I wanted to, not all at one time, but I can connect my desperate desires to connect with humans is to be.
And because of the world after COVID, after all of that, we were so separated. And, you know, the human condition is that we need other humans. But there's a lot of stuff that we don't necessarily need, and that's what we get through these tools.
Gillian Utesch: There's a lot of steps in between connecting. Right. It is [00:28:00] not just walking into the Starbucks anymore.
There's a lot of steps from Raleigh, North Carolina to Haiti, or to, you know, South Africa. I thought I had a very strong network because I could fit, it goes back to the seen and unseen. I could physically see them. I could meet them at conferences. I had a strong network. If I was going to play Red Rover, I could see who was on my team and I knew we were going to win.
Translate that to a virtual network. It's a little bit difficult to know exactly. Okay, who is here? What is their skill set? How can we go together? But that's where the connection comes and having the free time in your schedule and the mental bandwidth to really and truly invest in those relationships versus using your time to invest in scrolling for hours or cutting and pasting for hours.
It is. It remains this. I live in. I find myself kind of in awe that utilizing technology and technology as polarizing as AI can [00:29:00] actually create such a stronger human to human interaction.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, and you said something that everybody else right now is going, well, how does AI do that? How do I have a , stronger human connection with AI?
Gillian Utesch: It takes out the noise, and it reduces the timeline.
Gillian Utesch: So in a relationship, there's both people. And even if there was no AI, and you were a person who was number one top on your game, which none of us are, at least not every day, then you're also depending on the person you're trying to connect with to be 100 percent on their game.
That's an even stronger stretch. Now we want an even larger number of folks to kind of be these A plus humans, which is exhausting. So in that timeline, yeah, I may not check my email. for three or four days because I'm just tired, or, oh, I may not respond to that LinkedIn message. I just don't want to. When you multiply that over your life, how much time was lost in those transactions?
Whereas utilizing avatars to do the logical next step in a very [00:30:00] sequential and efficient order leads us to the part no human would put off the opportunity to talk face to face with someone. They, you want, that's what we crave to do. We are supposed to live in packs. We're supposed to engage with each other.
This isn't a task that you want to procrastinate, but golly gee, if you tell me, okay, it's the numbers game, which we know it is. If you said, okay, Jillian, you need to reach out to a thousand people on LinkedIn if you want 10 of them to respond to you. Oh, but if you said you have 10 people every month that are new, that want to talk to you, that sounds super exciting because the noise is out of that statement and the time it took a month to get there, not three months to get there.
Leighann Lovely: That's the exact explanation that I was hoping to hear is that, you know, this isn't a, Hey, I'm going to send my avatar out there and just spam everybody. No, it's going to go out there and identify the right people to have the right conversations with in order to, and it's going to remove that part [00:31:00] where I'm trying to figure out who is the right person.
Who is the. But it's going to lead me to eventually having that real interaction with the right person at the right time for both of us.
Gillian Utesch: Yeah. And I'm glad you said both that has been when I was going through COVID was a very, I didn't realize it, but it was a very transformative time for me and kind of like growing my business.
I didn't know I was going through the transformation as it was happening. I just knew when I arrived at the end, Oh, wow, I'm a different butterfly than I went in. Same thing with my business. Oh, I'm a different business than, than what I started out to be. And so that's kind of been interesting, but I realized in COVID that I'm really an introvert.
Which was shocking to me and everyone, because I lived this persona. I said, okay, I'm in sales and marketing. I have to put myself out there. I have to go to every wine and cheese night. I have to do this. Even though it was just emotionally. Now I like people, but it was still emotionally draining for me.
Right? And so having that [00:32:00] detox with Covid, I. And many other very similar things like that. I realized who I was because I could be myself with no outside influence, no outside judgment. I just organically became the shape of clay I wanted to be versus the shape of clay that the pressure of the world around me was pushing me into.
And so with that came purpose. I didn't know to what capacity that purpose would be, but I knew I wanted all of my choices to be. Um, and so I wanted to be able to have purpose in them and to be something that really reflected my heart and what I wanted to do. And so kind of using those as my drivers, I wanted to have connection with people.
I wanted to connect people together. That is another thing I love. I love being the person who, Oh, I got a guy. Oh, I know somebody. Oh, I've got the best. I love off. I love. That's like my honest, unofficial role in the world. I'm sorry, my unofficial role in the world. I love to provide that, but not having a virtual network, I wasn't able to do that.
So that was a part of my love cup, my personal love cup, [00:33:00] that wasn't filled because I wasn't able to do that for others. So utilizing AI and our AI avatars to help me get back in that arena, that has been huge in fulfilling my human, my human love cup in connecting and connecting people.
Leighann Lovely: That's that's so I love when I hear you know that those types of stories like it's just it's amazing and and and I agree like I my digital network has and understand that I started on LinkedIn from.
Like the days of like, Oh my God, LinkedIn is brand new when, when you actually, this is, this is hilarious. We used to have parties called LinkedIn parties. And the whole purpose of this was to go to introduce yourself to people. And then at the end, you'd be like, all right, so we should connect on LinkedIn.
Right. And that was like, so you had to meet people in person and then it was, so let's connect on LinkedIn. So we didn't just randomly reach out to people on LinkedIn. We met [00:34:00] them first, then connected. It seems kind of backwards now, doesn't it? But this was the day, yes, right. But this was like LinkedIn was brand, brand, brand, brand, brand new.
So my network. I have a very large, you know, network on LinkedIn and, you know, some of those connections go back to like day one of like when LinkedIn just, and I'm still in contact with them and it's, it's funny to think like, Oh my God, we've met in person, but that was like, so again, I'm dating myself anyways, that, but I love, I love, you know, what you just said that was just so well, Put and we are coming to time.
Leighann Lovely: So I, I do want to offer you the opportunity for your 32nd shameless pitch. Because I do with everybody, but Jillian, this has been such an awesome conversation. I can see the passion. I can hear the passion in your voice and, um, yeah, so 32nd. [00:35:00]
Gillian Utesch: I first thank you for letting me come on and share this journey because I, I live, I'm realizing I'm not unique.
I'm not special. If I've gone on this journey or someone else is maybe thinking about going on this journey, I'm glad that I could share this to maybe motivate and inspire them to say, it's okay. Come on over to the AI side. The water's not cold. There's no sharks. It'll be okay. The music's playing. I just, I love that.
I also want to invite anyone to check out our YouTube channel, brokenglassceilingmarketing. com. I like, I'm nosy because I'm a southern girl and I like to know how things work, how they go together. So I do a lot of loom videos showing how we construct our avatars, how our avatars interact as your digital footprint so that folks can see that and kind of get a better, because it's, it's, it's interesting.
I say, okay, we're going to build an invisible, an invisible version of you. Put them out on the internet and let them go make friends for you. That sounds absolutely silly beans. So I like folks to see that so [00:36:00] they can feel confident. And also my personal website, JillianUtash. com, I talk about all kinds of crazy things, recipes, organizing things that I like, stories that I've met because we are a comp, we are a total of our connections.
So stories I've heard from my girlfriends and friends along the way that have helped shape me into the human. I like to feature those and talk about those as well.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. Again, Jillian, thank you so very, very, very much. I will have where you can reach out to Jillian on your show notes. So please don't hesitate to check the show notes for that information.
And again, this has been an amazing conversation.
Gillian Utesch: I loved it. Thank you.
 

Navigating Success and Setbacks in Business

In this episode of "Love Your Sales," host Leighann Lovely sits down with Mike Long, founder and lead designer of LightQuest, an outdoor illumination company. Mike shares his entrepreneurial journey, recalling the evolution of his businesses from lawn care to lighting, emphasizing the importance of a strong work ethic, adaptability, and passion. They discuss the challenges faced by entrepreneurs, such as constant change and the necessity of hiring smarter to grow effectively. Mike offers valuable advice on forging ahead despite difficulties and underscores the need for continuous learning and improvement. Tune in for an inspiring conversation packed with practical insights for budding entrepreneurs and seasoned business owners alike.
Contact Mike –
Website - https://calllightquest.com/
Email - mike@calllightquest.com
LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-long-cold-clvlt-659b6959/
 
-Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com and Accelerategrowth45 – www.accelerategrowth45.com
-Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
-The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
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-Channel Subscribe link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-O7W9DzaRv4waodQKCprIg?sub_confirmation=1
 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. Today, I am joined by Mike Long. He is the founder and lead designer of LightQuest, an outdoor illumination company. Mike Long grew up in Southeastern Wisconsin and has been an entrepreneur most of his life. He started his first business in 1994 and has never looked back.
From 1997 to 2017, he was the founder and partner in a very [00:02:00] successful landscaping and lawn care company. And in 1998, one of his lawn care clients asked about landscape lighting. Mike has never. Looked back ever since he was hooked on that. And I am extremely excited because Mike, you have owned four successful businesses over the years and, and maybe more in there, as a serial entrepreneur, but, you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Mike Long: All right. Yeah. My name is Mike Long. So I started in lawn care. We actually started mowing in 1994. We started a mowing company, small landscape jobs, stuff like that. Built it up. Big enough that we could sell it and we did. Um, we wanted to learn the lawn care side of it, the spraying, the chemicals and all that stuff.
So we sold the company. We actually went to work for TruGreen for 2 seasons, learned that business, left, started our own company, and that's, that's, in 1997, that's the company we started, was, our first company was called Green Masters. [00:03:00] We built that up, you know. And in 2001, so literally 4 years, we had a national company wanting to buy us out.
So we sold to the Scott's Fertilizer Company in 2001. That's when Scott, you know, the big Scott's Fertilizer Company, they used to be in lawn care. They got started in this area, in Southeast Wisconsin, by buying our company. So then, the next day, they literally left with a floppy disk. That's all. They left with a floppy disk and they transferred a whole bunch of money to our account.
And we're like, hey, what are we So they left us in business, we went back to work the next day, and we started this professional lawn service. And we went to fertilizing commercial properties only because they didn't buy a commercial business. We built that up huge. We're doing a couple million dollars a year and just commercial business.
 Doing realizing, uh, stuff like that. We also started a landscaping company at the time because we had a 3 or 9 compete. Let's start a couple of different businesses and keep going.
Great journey, we brought some partners in. Um, [00:04:00] we've sold the landscaping company to 1 of our employees. A month before the 1st bank collapsed in 2009, so when the whole big economy, we literally lucked out timing wise, and we sold it a month before that., because a lot of those, a lot of those builders that we're doing work for actually went out of business.
Then once the solely focused on, uh, long care again. Built that up huge again and true green big national competitor was after us for a couple of years. It was no, we're not ready to sell and I'm ready to sell. So we ended up in South result was sold in August of 2017. And then I was full time in lighting the next day.
I started the lighting company a couple of years before that, just part time on the side while doing the lawn care. So I had some business already lined up, but, you know, I just, I just set little goals. So we sold August of 2017. I said, all right, I want to do 125, of work before the year. Guess what? We hit on 20, hours of work before the end of the year, then just kept building and building and building.
And now we're probably [00:05:00] 1 of the largest outdoor lighting companies in the area within a matter of. What was it? 7 years. There's a bunch of other stuff in the journey. We started the trucking company for a while that didn't work. We ended up just selling all the trucks because it was just so so we had a great thing going.
We had, we had 1st and 2nd shift drivers running and then. I'm going to point to Ocean Spray because our office is still over where we were, but Ocean Spray came in there and a new trucking company came in and took over that Ocean Spray contract. And within 1 day, he took all of our drivers to go to this huge national trucking company and we couldn't do anything about it.
So, that was the start of our downturn of what happened there and then you're fighting trying to find drivers and we're like, we're done. So, yeah, we lost all of our drivers, except for 1 in a matter of 24
Leighann Lovely: Oh, my God, that's bad luck.
Mike Long: That's just, it just, you only have more to offer as a bigger company and, you know, it is what it is.
It just, I get it. I wasn't happy about it, but I get it. It was, he saw an [00:06:00] opportunity that recruiter did and he took all of our drivers to make it. That hurts. That hurts. So
Leighann Lovely: that's the
Mike Long: joys of owning a business. You can figure out ways around it. And, um, that one, we just decided to not try to figure out a way around.
And we said, you know what, this is taking more time than we wanted to put into it anyways, but just shut it down. So we did. We shut it down and we sold. So that's one of the unsuccessful, things that we had throughout our successful career. So, yeah. Um, but that's that's a snapshot of what I've what I've gone through and what we built throughout the years.
 When I was going to going to college, I worked for a, a small towing company, learned a lot from that guy. Um, it was a company, a small towing company down in Zion. And he taught me a lot about small business, how to how to how to run employees. I was, I was running a whole bunch of towing operators during that time going to college.
He put me, he put me, he put me in charge of the, of the tow truck. He called me the towing supervisor. I knew nothing about it, but I was, he saw something in me. So, so he taught [00:07:00] me how to do this and we figured it out. That's what kind of gave me my entrepreneurial bug, I guess you could say.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, and you know, there's one thing that's consistent, , that I have found with people who become entrepreneurials or an entrepreneur.
 Once you get the bug, you can't, you, you don't really turn back. And if you do, it's,
it's very difficult for those, entrepreneurs. you know, that, that have no choice, I should say that, you know, they, but there are a lot of, um, there are a lot of people out there that once, once you step over that threshold, it's, it's hard to turn back, especially if you're good at it. And with somebody who's run now multiple businesses, sold businesses, I mean, it's, you're a lifer, you're, you're never going to, um, work for somebody else.
And that's awesome. That's so, are you also the salesperson within these businesses?
Mike Long: Yeah, in every business [00:08:00] I've started on this. Selling and you figure it out, um, and then you hire other people to sell and you help them figure it out. And, so now in the lighting company, I have 1 salesperson. I'm gonna bring another 1 on this, this, uh, probably next month.
Marker
Mike Long: To get me out of the sales operations, because we're big enough that I need to be just focusing on the vision and moving this beast forward. So I need to step away from that, which. I love sales. I love talking to customers. I love learning about customers and learning what they do and how they're successful.
That's going to hurt. I'll still be to go out with those 2 guys and still still kind of show them what to do. And so I'll still be involved in that by teaching and expanding that way. But I won't miss it when I have to get out of sales completely because I love being out there and. And really just feeling what's going on in the economy by talking to people and, you know, that helps you drive your business that way, too, by being out in the middle of it as well.
 He's got to get KPIs in place to be able to look at that from the [00:09:00] inside instead of being on the outside. So, but yeah, so we're in that process now in this company as well. So. Yeah. I've always thought.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. You know, and that's, I've seen plenty of people start businesses who are not salespeople and be successful at it, but people who are sales minded and start businesses, man, do they just really being able to have that business mindset and then start a business and be able to sell the product?
And. Understand the product and run the business to man, they just, they really skyrocket when you have both the operational mindset and the sales mindset, putting those two together is just a very powerful, powerful way to be able to enter in as a brand new business. Um, not saying that, not saying that you can't do that if you're not, you know, and depending on the product as well, but man, that's, that's a powerful.
It's a powerful force to be reckoned with when you have both that operational, ability and the sales ability. So [00:10:00] what do you think made you successful in your first business?
Mike Long: It's a work ethic. I, my dad taught me how to work and you work until you figure it out. Things aren't going to go well at all. Remember we, so let me explain our first year business in lawn care in 19, 1997. Of course, we started out in the springtime. We're doing great, selling all kinds of stuff, bought a couple new trucks.
Also, you know, what happens in Wisconsin in the wintertime, you can't fertilize any lawns. You can't, you can't. Well, you could try, but it's not going to go well. Oh, so we didn't make much money our first year at all. And then all of a sudden, you know, we have no revenue coming in at all. Like how are we going to pay our bills?
We have two, two wheel drive trucks. You can't plow it, but guess what? We figured out a way to plow them. We bought these big blocks of concrete, put them on the back of the truck. We bought eight, eight and a half foot plows for the front of them. So we had one ton duallys. And guess what? We figured out how to plow [00:11:00] and we got hired out by a couple of big landscapers that we worked for.
And guess what? We were able to pay our bills. He's figured out, you know, you just, you always, you always, you think you have things figured out until you don't have it figured out and you have to change and keep moving from there. Um, just again, that 1st year we're, we're, we thought we're going to sell.
And do all the applications and do all the bookkeeping and do all this stuff. Also, we're in the middle of springtime. We're trying to sell. We're trying to get the work done. We're like, we can't do all this. We're there's not enough hours in a day. So we had to hire our 1st technician to do lawn applications right away.
Our 1st spring. We weren't planning on doing that. So we had some payroll. We had to deal with. And so you just, you figure it out. That's and you, you, you just work. Remember over the winter time when snow wasn't happening guess what I was out delivering papers in the middle of the night just to be able to make our mortgage payment you do what you have to do.
So I'm up, [00:12:00] you know, four o'clock in the morning delivering newspapers and I go to work at seven o'clock in the morning to sell lawn care and you just figure things out. So, it's not. Entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart. You have to, you have to work.
Leighann Lovely: It's, you know, I used to, when I, early on in my sales career, somebody told me, they're just like, you just fake it until you make it.
And I'm like, yeah, but, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. When you go on your first sales call, if you make an error, Don't stop in the middle of your sales pitch and tell everybody you've made an error. They don't know. And I'm like, yeah, but, and they're like, no, they don't know. You just keep plowing through.
And then after the fact, if you know, they're like, well, what about this? You can simply say, I misspoke. Let me explain, but you don't call yourself out right then and there and it's like, [00:13:00] Oh, okay, okay. And, and that was so powerful when somebody explained it to me, you fake it till you make it like continue to push through.
And if you made it, make a mistake, don't stop, then fix it after the fact, because they don't know any different. And if they decide to say, no, I'm not interested. Okay, well, then, you know, as long as it's not a big error, like, oh, this is 49. 99, wait, no, I meant 499, okay, that might be an error in which you want to call, but the point being is that the majority of the time that we make little blips or we make a little tiny mistake, those are things that we can fix and we can move on.
But you don't necessarily have to call yourself out right in front of the prospect at that moment. When you're making cold calls, if you accidentally say the wrong thing, the majority of the time it's gone way over their head anyways. You just keep plowing through until you figure it out. You, and once [00:14:00] I learned that, oh gee, I'm human just like everybody else.
I make mistakes just like everybody else. Don't be so darn hard on yourself. Fake it till you make it, figure it out. And that's when all of a sudden my ability to sell went through the roof. Now I'm an ethical person, just like you. I'm a moral person, just like you. I'm not talking about like faking it and outright lie to people.
That is not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that we are all human. We all make mistakes. And sometimes those are. tiny little things that, and if you just keep doing it over and over and over again, one day, all of the pieces will fall into place. And I will tell you as an entrepreneur or myself, I have made a billion and 10 mistakes.
I fixed them and I move on. And, and that's, I guess, a life lesson of somebody who's also, you know, recovering [00:15:00] perfectionist. It was difficult, it was difficult to learn that, but yeah, I mean, that's extremely, extremely good advice to, to, you know, somebody who is going to venture, I had to pay my accountant through the nose last year to fix my books.
I was like, what do you mean this isn't right? She's like, I have no idea what you did here, but like, okay, all right, I'll get better. So I don't end up having to pay you half of my wages next time to fix my accounting errors. But that is part of being human. It's part of being an entrepreneur.
Mike Long: And that's the key to always want, always willing to learn because there's, there's We first started our business, we had no idea about systems and processes and stuff like we didn't know that was such a thing.
And now I live by systems and processes. I don't even know how I even made it through those 1st couple years without having them in. You [00:16:00] learn, you keep, I'm always, I'm always listening to books, listening to podcasts, listening, you know, listening to this, you know, going to this seminar, that seminar, you have to continue to learn and improve.
If you want to continue to grow your business, because the same Mike that started, we were actually Mike's landscape lighting. We started 7 years ago. The same Mike that started Mike's landscape lighting is not the same Mike that is running Mike plus now. There's no possible way. We have. Way too many people in place and have systems in place in order to continue to grow and continue to do that.
Yes,
Leighann Lovely: my dad, my dad once said to me, um, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You have to be this smart enough to hire somebody who is smarter than you to do the job. And I went, Oh, then I can do anything. Well, if you have enough money to do that, right? It that's true. You, you don't have to be the smartest person in the room.
You just have to be smart enough to know. That you don't know how to do something. It's like, Oh, [00:17:00] okay. So I don't have to be able to do everything myself, but I have to be self aware enough and smart enough to know that I can't do something or I will fail 10 times out of 10.
Mike Long: Yep. And give people the tools to have ownership of their position.
And to have, you know, key performance indicators, I talk about KPIs, have KPIs in place, you make sure you can see what they're doing and, and, and monetize what they're doing. And yeah, that's something that I'm still learning.
Leighann Lovely: Well, and we all are, we, we absolutely all are because if you. If your sales person is out there saying, I'm working 40 hours a week, but they're bringing absolutely no business in, um, how long do you allow that to go on before you say, wait, what are you doing 40 hours a week?
Mike Long: Mm-hmm . You have to know what everybody's doing. Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: Correct. Same [00:18:00] thing with your accountant. If your accountant's saying, oh, I'm working, I'm working, I'm working, but your books are never getting fixed. You're, it goes for any, it goes for any role in a business. And that's, I mean, that's what it comes down to, is what does your bottom look like, bottom line look like, and what are the people around you doing in order to make sure that that all of those numbers are equaling each other, and at the end of the day, you are better off than you were.
you know, a month ago.
Mike Long: Yeah, I listened to a book. I think it's how to buy back your time. And he's been one thing that this author says, forgive me, you've got some order. He talks about having 80 percent done by somebody else is 100 percent better than you doing. Even if somebody else does it at 80 percent of what you could do, it's still 100 percent better than you doing it.
Yeah. Understand that it's not going to be perfect.
Leighann Lovely: Correct. If you're the person at the head, and, and I hate using that terminology because anyways, but I completely agree. [00:19:00] Like, and that's where I struggle. I'm like, I can do this in 10 minutes, whereas if I have to go train somebody and it takes them a half an hour, I'm like, Oh man, that's, that's, I struggle with that.
But you get to a point where it's like, yeah, but 10 minutes of my time doing all of these things eventually doesn't equal 40 hours a week. It's 80 hours a week and it's not, that's not sustainable
Mike Long: and
Leighann Lovely: you can't grow that way. And yeah, I know that I can do almost every job at my company. That's just, how do I grow if I'm trying to do every job at my company? And nobody will ever be as good at doing what I do because it's me, because I, because I have to learn how to let go of the reins and say, okay,
I have to accept Other people's work. And now just let me let me say this. [00:20:00] Yes, other people can do a wildly better job at certain things that I can. Absolutely. I'm not saying that I'm perfect. I just think, well, if I do it, it's going to be the best. That's that little tiny arrogance that I think that every entrepreneur has.
Like, Oh, I can do it better. However, there's been plenty of times where I've done something that I've handed it over to my marketing team and it comes back and I go, Whoa, that is so much better than what I could have done. And that's the learning curve of wow. And those are the aha moments of going. I should have, I should have let go of these reigns a long time ago.
Mike Long: And that's one thing I remember, Dan, Dan Sullivan's the author of this book, Buy Back Your Time. And he, he tells you to hire to buy back your time, but instead of hiring for an open position, no. What, how much more time do you need to keep up or more free up so you can run your business and hire somebody to [00:21:00] buy back your time?
I love that book. It's a great book. I love listening to this stuff. It's awesome.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, and and it makes complete sense because you are buying back your time if I can go in and that was the hardest thing For me even for this podcast for instance for for many years. I had been Recording the podcast I had been editing the podcast producing the podcast and eventually I went okay.
I can't I can't I can't do this and run my business. So I actually have now hired somebody to do my podcast and I went, wow, this is so much more fun. I, I absolutely, you know, love doing it way more now when I just get to record it and have conversations. Okay.
Mike Long: You probably found somebody that's way faster and way better at you for editing and stuff.
Leighann Lovely: Right, right. But, you know, in your head you think, well, I'm the only one that can do it. So, if you had advice to give to You know what? Somebody who's considering [00:22:00] or somebody who's in their 1st or 2nd year of, of entrepreneurship. What, what advice would you give to them?
Mike Long: Well, that's 2 different things. Somebody that's thinking about getting in and
Leighann Lovely: somebody that's already in
Mike Long: it. Yes. So, but find something you're passionate about 1st. You know, if so, if you're not in it yet, find something that you really love to do, and that will help you, that will help you continue to push through when things get tough.
Somebody's already in it, and it's something that they truly don't love to do, then, why are you in it? Why, what, what makes you, what made you start this company? What, goals do you have for your family? What goals do you have for the future or stuff like that? Um, I think, I think goals are very, very important.
I just, I just spent the day yesterday. Finalizing my goals for the year, you got to have personal goals, you got to have business goals, you know, and personally, you got to have, you know, keep your, keep yourself healthy, keep working out, you know, keep yourself spiritually, you're, you know, uh, you're mind fresh with books.
 There's all kinds of stuff you do there. [00:23:00] So, what's one, what's one big piece of advice? That's a hard one. There's so many pieces of advice. Yes. There's so many things you have to do, but. Don't be afraid of change. You have to change all the time. Like last year, our marketing just stopped working, which I talked to people all over the country and their marketing stopped working.
So it wasn't just our news. I think it was just part of the economy too, but just because you've been doing something a certain way forever and ever, ever doesn't mean you shouldn't, shouldn't look at a different option to do something different, you know, find a different way to market, find a different way to just wording in your market.
You know, I can be pretty stubborn, but. I changed everything with my marketing last year. So, be, um, be flexible and, and don't be afraid of change or a couple big ones right there. But yeah, having a passion for what you do will help you push through some of the times when they get. How many knows can you take in a day before you go?
This is stupid. You know, you have to [00:24:00] push through those. You go through those 10 no's and there's gonna be a big yes on the other side of that. So you have to keep pushing through it. So, that's one piece of
Leighann Lovely: advice. Those are great. Everything that you said is an amazing advice because one, um, change, the only, the only thing that is constant is change.
A change is, I mean, look at the last four years, look at the last, you know, five, so much has changed and because the world with the pandemic, everything has changed. And this goes to your marketing. The way that we now, you know, consume information is so drastically changing. I mean, we went from, you know, avid networking constantly, constantly to being literally shut into our homes where everything went technology and technology is changing faster than we can marketing.
Faster than, you know, we can possibly keep up there was a [00:25:00] time when the only way that I could really, really sell the services that I was selling at the time was to go and knock on company doors. Most companies now they lock their front door unless you have an appointment. You don't even get past the front door, you know, a lot of these businesses, some of them now are become much more lax now that we're entered into what this to 20, 2025, and then the way that younger people are consuming their information, they're not on, you know, they're not on Facebook.
Younger generation is on, and I don't even honestly know what the youngest generation is on, but it's like TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, whatever it might be, but businesses are slow to adopt those new platforms because we'll, the older generation are still on Facebook, on LinkedIn, and then for many years.
depending on the industry you were in, they weren't on LinkedIn. Now, more business owners across [00:26:00] the industry, you know, across all industries are finally catching up to being on LinkedIn, but you go into automotive industry and where are they hanging out? So it's, it's extremely difficult with all of the new platforms, all of the new social media sites.
Where do you spend your dollars when it comes to marketing? You have to be willing to change, yet you go into certain industries and they're like, we've done it this way and we're, we're going to continue to do it this way because it's always worked well. What always has worked doesn't necessarily work in today's drastically evolving industry.
Technology world.
Mike Long: Well, the system that we're on right now, zoom, zoom wasn't even around five years ago.
Leighann Lovely: So are we going to meet? And I'm like, sure. How exactly are we meeting? Well, I'll send you a zoom meeting. And I'm like, wait, zoom or what was the one before that? Um, it was, What was [00:27:00] before Zoom? Yeah. I can't even remember the name of it off the top of my head.
Yes, there was one before Zoom that, yes. And what was it?
Mike Long: teams wasn't around either, so I, what was I, I remember. I know what you're talking about. I don't remember the name of it though. Yeah,
Leighann Lovely: yeah. I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head. And I'm like, okay, let's meet via Zoom. And then I was like, wait, this is just like that other one, except the other one.
Never really. took off. It was more of like a minor, you know, I'm like, okay, let's meet via zoom. And then, you know, teams internal for business, it was all teams. And so it's so Google meets is the other one that popped up that became extremely popular. And, you know, so now I, I can sit literally in my pajama pants and, you know, sweatshirt and have meetings.
And now people are like, you want to get coffee? I'm like, Oh, It's too cold outside. Do I have to drive?
I've become lazy.[00:28:00]
Whereas right. Whereas back, you know, four or five, six years ago, I put on, you know, four, 5, 000 miles in a year. with the amount that I would drive to meet clients. My, you know, I was, my territory was, you know, Wisconsin and Illinois. So I mean, I, I literally had an office in my car. I stocked my car with snacks.
And so when I was ready to get up in the morning, I just had to grab my cup of coffee. I had my breakfast ready for me in the car. Cause I knew I had a two hour drive to a client and was, so. I'm sorry. I digress. Get off my soapbox now. Um, so the advice that you gave, yeah, change, constant change that's, and it's evolving to at a speed I don't think you and I might have ever seen in our careers.
So yeah, it's, it is always, it's always moving and [00:29:00] shaking and, and I get more marketing emails today than I have ever received. in my career.
Mike Long: Yeah. And now marketing, you know, the text marketing and just all kinds of different marketing going on right now.
Leighann Lovely: So, yeah, I mean, I think that's, and you said one other thing, constant change.
And what was the other thing that you said?
Mike Long: Have a, have a passion for what you're doing.
Leighann Lovely: Passion for what you're doing. Yes. You can, you cannot sell something that you do not believe in. And I'm, I'm a true believer in that. Yes. You could, if you're a telemarketer, fine, but. You're reading a script.
 So, yeah, I totally agree. Great. Great advice. So we are coming to time. This is the point in which you get your 30 seconds. Shameless pitch
Mike Long: was pitch.
Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. Absolutely. You're 30. If you need to take a moment, please 30 seconds. Shameless pitch. All
Mike Long: right. So, white class outdoor illumination.
We service, [00:30:00] the Chicagoland market and the Milwaukee market. We are, um, anything that you need in outdoor lighting. I am a certified outdoor lighting designer. I'm a certified low voltage lighting technician. So I spent a lot of time going to school and learning the best ways of designing. I graduated from the International Landscape Lighting Institute.
 I was actually a mentor at the Landscape Lighting Institute. I actually taught at the COLE program too, the Certified Outdoor Lighting Designer program. So I'm probably 1 of the most, most versed outdoor lighting designer in the area. Um, there's a lot of other outdoor lighting designers, so, you know, some actually worked for me as well, started their own company, which is fine.
I love that. But yeah, so anything you need for outdoor lighting, uh, design and installation, LightQuest Outdoor Illumination is the company and, and we'd be happy to help you with anything you need. That is
Leighann Lovely: that is awesome. And if somebody needed to reach out to you and wanted to talk with you about that, how would they go about doing that?
Mike Long: So, our phone number here at the [00:31:00] office is 262 358 9100, or they can email me, Mike, at call like quest. com.
Leighann Lovely: Perfect. And those will be in the show notes. So if you are interested in reaching out to Mike or like quest, um, please go ahead and do that or find the, find the information in the show notes and Mike, this has been such an amazing conversation.
I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your journey with us and, advice.
Mike Long: Well, thank you for having me on. And I know, I know you're after me for a while. And so I'm pretty, this is perfect time to set this up and do this. So thank you for, thank you for inviting me on your show.
Leighann Lovely: Yes, I enjoyed it.
Katherine Bruess: This podcast is presented by Accelerate Growth 45, your one stop shop for business growth. Stop running your business like an operator, delaying wealth creation and sacrificing your time. Instead, focus on building a valuable business asset, creating lasting wealth and reclaiming the time you deserve.
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Robb Conlon: Thanks for joining us for Love Your Sales. For More, connect with Leanne on LinkedIn and be sure to subscribe to the show and leave us a rating in review. We'd love to hear what you think, looking for a way to take your sales process to the next level. Visit us@loveyoursales.com to find out more about how Leanne can take your organization to new Revenue Heights.
And be sure to join us next time for more great ways to love your customers so they love your [00:33:00] sales.

Transforming Sales Through Effective Communication

In this engaging episode of "Love Your Sales," Leighann Lovely chats with Eric Forrestal, a master communicator and founder of Workforce Renegades. They dive deep into the intricacies of effective communication, focusing particularly on the DISC behavioral assessment and its impact on sales and team dynamics. Eric shares insightful anecdotes about understanding and adapting to different personality types, offering practical tips for improving interactions in both professional and personal settings. Listeners will find valuable strategies for enhancing their communication skills and building stronger relationships with clients and colleagues. This episode is a must-listen for sales professionals looking to refine their approach and achieve greater success. Tune in now to discover how to better connect, understand, and communicate with those around you!
Contact Eric -
Email - eric@workforcerenegades.com
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericforrestal/
Website - www.workforcerenegades.com
 
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Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of love your sales.
I am so thrilled. I am joined by Eric forestal master communicator, original renegade from workforce renegades, Eric. Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have this conversation.
Eric Forrestal: Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.
Leighann Lovely: So what is workforce renegades and what do you, what do you do with your time?
Eric Forrestal: Oh, well, uh, workforce renegades.
So I create renegades in the workforce. I feel like every company needs a workforce renegade, [00:02:00] uh, someone that knows their sales, they can recruit, they can train what they do, and then they can lead a team. So, what I try to do is, is make other master communicators and all those kind of pillars of a business.
And, uh, and, and yeah, like I said, create workforce renegades.
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. Because one of the most important things to any business is being, well, in my personal opinion, an over communicator, but a good communicator and understanding how to appropriately communicate to different personalities. Right.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. Yeah. To, you know, different strokes for different folks. Uh, there's, there's different ways to communicate with different people. You know, the, the golden rule is treat everyone the way that you want to be treated, but I think it's a little bit more, you gotta, you gotta treat them the way that they want to be treated.
So I try to instill that a little bit more and, um, and really show people how they can, you know, if they have a message to deliver, how they may have to adapt their message to deliver it.
Leighann Lovely: [00:03:00] That's So well said, because I used to do the, we'll treat everybody the way that I want to be treated. And I realized really quickly that does not always work.
 You know, I am, I'm very much, I'm a very bold personality. Sure. I'm, I'm one of those people who's, you know, just get to the details and what you, what you need, um, what you want. And I came to realize that there are people out there who really need the, hello, how are you today? And, uh, got myself in a little bit of trouble early on with not doing the niceties before the demands or.
Yeah. They weren't so much the demand, but I find myself saying, Hey, and then spilling out what I need and then going, I'm sorry, how you doing?
Eric Forrestal: Sure thing. Sure thing.
Leighann Lovely: So it used to be, you know, treat people as you, you know, want to be treated, but at the same time, not everybody is like me.
Eric Forrestal: [00:04:00] You
Leighann Lovely: know, my brother used to say like, Oh, Monday, niceties. I hate it. I don't want to work in an office anymore. And I'm like, a lot of people need that. Like they, other people, they don't.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: How do you, you know, start getting people to understand? Cause it's not that easy. It's how do you start to understand or help other people understand?
the nuances of other people's personalities.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's really tricky. And I've been in sales and team building and, and kind of this world of communication for, you know, going on 20 years now. So, um, I think it was a lot harder to explain before I felt like I felt like I used to just tell people, Oh, you just got to know, you know, you just got to read them.
You got to get a, you know, a feel for the room. Know your know your crowd, everything like that. I realized I had a really good knack for that. Uh, you know, I grew up in a big family. I had, [00:05:00] uh, you know, three older brothers, an older sister, a step mom, a step dad, you know, to, you know, kind of doing both sides.
Sometimes I met mom, sometimes I met dads and I was the youngest. And so I always had to kind of figure out people's mannerisms and, you know, what brother who, what brother I'm talking to and what I'm asking for. Cause they all communicated differently. Uh, so, you know, growing up through that and then just through kind of early on in my career, I just got good at it.
But what I found was it was the hardest thing to train.
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Eric Forrestal: You know, you can train scripts, you can train, you know, objection handling and all those things. But it was really hard to train how to read people. And it was a few years ago that I got reintroduced to DISC. Now, I'll, I'll explain what DISC is for anyone that doesn't know in a little bit, but basically it's a behavioral assessment.
And I used to think behavioral assessments were the dumbest things. I would always say, you know, and if, and if you've ever worked in sales or any sort of, Communication, you were probably forced to take some sort of behavioral assessment.
Leighann Lovely: Right.
Eric Forrestal: [00:06:00] So for years, I thought they were dumb because I don't need an assessment to tell me that I'm loud and obnoxious.
Right. So. It's, it's kind of one of those things where any, any assessment I was taking, I'd say, well, what's the loud obnoxious one? Okay. Yes. I'm an Enneagram seven. I'm a high D high. I, I'm a, you know, I'm a, I'm a squiggly line. I'm whatever it is. It's like, okay, I get it. And so I always used to read those thinking it was, you know, all about me, me, me.
 It wasn't until, you know, I was doing real estate at the time and this lady came in and she gave a great presentation and, you know, It was a two hour presentation. And as soon as she started talking, I do what most real estate agents do is I got in the back, I opened up my computer and I started answering emails, right?
Cause that's what, that's what a lot of us do. And there was about 10 minutes within this presentation where she said, this is how you identify it on in others. And this is how you can adapt your communication style. And it was a great 10 minutes. And I walked up to her afterwards. I was like, that was a [00:07:00] great presentation.
This 10 minutes was my favorite part. You should do an entire presentation on just that 10 minutes. Like that would be worth it, you know? And I didn't know, like, I, I didn't realize what I said. Cause then she just kind of put her hand on my shoulder and goes, well, what did you think about the other hour and 50 minutes?
And I was like, yeah, you know, and, uh, and she was, you know, she was so nice and she got, you know, she, she kind of looked at me and she said, well, maybe you should, if you're. You know, if you have a direction that you want to take it, maybe you should. And so she kind of started my journey on, on looking at disc and behavioral assessments in a, in a completely different way.
And so she's actually the one that kind of bridged the gap for me to get certified in it and, and go through it. And for me, disc was a really good vehicle to explain. What I was trying to explain over the years, you know, um, not everyone's going to come up and hand you an assessment and say, Hey, this is how I communicate.
Can you communicate with me like this? So I started looking at, you know, I started looking [00:08:00] at these profiles and then I also started looking at how you can identify those profiles and how you can adapt your communication style.
Leighann Lovely: And, it's real. So I've actually had people where I'm in a, on a sales call or, and they've walked in the room, sat down and go, just so you know, I'm a Heidi
Eric Forrestal: and I'm like, Heidi would say that.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. That is perfect. Because now I know how to present this information to you. Like if we all just walked around and go, I'm a hot eye, that's great. Okay, now I know how to communicate with like, or I know how better to communicate with you. Like, you don't want to get lost in the details. You don't care how.
It like the nuances of how it works. You just want to know what the outcome is going to be of that. Maybe or, or maybe you are somebody who needs to know the details of how it's going to work, depending on what your. You know, where [00:09:00] you fall on that scale, it, it absolutely will help me now. Obviously, if you're walking into a, you know, doing a, a group presentation, you're probably going to end up with a couple of, you know, variety of different people in that room, a high C, a high D, you know, a high I, and then you have to be able to adapt and cater to the questions or, you know, the blah, blah, blah, but having an understanding and knowing.
Somebody's, you know, where their interests lie, where they, where they're, you know, get the most out of that conversation can change the outcome of a conversation a hundred percent. Like, and same goes for when you are a high I, and you're meeting with somebody who's Let me tell you, I am, I am energy, energy, energy.
If I walk into an accounting firm, [00:10:00]
Eric Forrestal: Yep.
Leighann Lovely: It's, if I was to let that energy constantly be coming out, they'd be like, she needs to leave. Right. Like, it just, I don't fit in.
Eric Forrestal: They just, well, that's why it's, you know, it's and those of you for, uh, you know, just so I can kind of maybe for anyone that's listening that doesn't know what disk is.
 Yes.
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Eric Forrestal: The best way I can describe DISC is if you, if you remember the last time you went to a restaurant and you went out to eat with a group of people and the way that you can watch someone order off the menu and, and talk to the waiter is the way that they behave and they communicate. Right? And so it's so funny because the waiter will come up and say, you know, what can I get you guys?
And she might be just starting with drinks. And right away. A high D is going to go, you know, they know exactly what they're going to get because they get the same thing every time because they know what they like to eat and they know they're hungry. So if they got burgers on the menu or they're going to go right in [00:11:00] right away and they'll be the first to order and they'll say, I'll get a burger, medium, rare fries on the side, right?
It's because they know they like burgers and they know they're hungry. So they're very direct and they, they don't need, they don't need anyone's. They don't need anyone else's opinion or anything like that. And then the waiter looks at the next person and that person's just talking to everyone at the table.
This person hasn't even looked at the menu. Yeah. They haven't even looked at the menu and you know, the quick look at the menu, the maybe, Oh, can you come back around to me? Or they'll just make a quick panic decision and be like, you know what, what did you get? You know, I'll take that because they really don't care about what they're getting.
They care that. They care who they're there with. They care who they're talking to, who's at the table, and they don't want to miss out on any of the conversation. But I'm
Leighann Lovely: also a high D.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. And, and so, and that's fine, but you'll, you'll be talking to everyone and then, and then what'll happen is they'll say, what do you want?
And they'll be like, I'll, a burger. I'm good. You'll be very direct in it. But the point of it is those 2, both of those 2 types are both both extroverted. So [00:12:00] they're, they have no problem looking at the waiter and talking and saying what they want. And then also they have no problem talking to everyone that's at the table.
And then you have that 3rd type. That's just a little bit more indecisive where they want to make sure everyone else knows what they're getting. Right? So they might start asking questions like, hey, What did you see that they have not? Are you getting the nachos or what are you getting there? They're more focused on the table and making sure that everyone's happy.
Everyone's satisfied. Hey, did you get that drink that you wanted, but they're really indecisive. The last thing that they want to do is make an opinion or they is make an actual order. They might even ask the waiter. What what's good. They might even, you know, just take what's special. Oh, what does the cook want to make?
What do you have a lot of, right? They don't want to, they don't really want to, like, ruffle any feathers, and they just want everyone to have a good time. And then you have that last type, that, that high C type, where as soon as they found out where they were going out to eat, they looked up the menu online and sat in the parking lot for 45 minutes, looking at the menu, to make sure That they know [00:13:00] all of their options and, you know, they might come with questions or they know exactly what they're getting before they get in there because they, they did the time to analyze it and calculate what's the best option for them.
 And so that, I mean, whenever I'm explaining disks to someone, that's the best way I can explain it because everyone's been out to eat with a group of people and then also. Everyone, when I talk about those things, everyone's like, yeah, you know what? I know someone that orders that way. Or I order every time, you know, you raise your hand as soon as the second time you're like, yup, that's me right there.
So we can all identify that. And that's just. eating, ordering off a menu. Just think about if we were to look at all the other mannerisms that people do in meetings, in the office, on phone calls, through emails, text messages, you know, you name it. It's, it's kind of one of those things that you can start to put votes in the right letter for, and then kind of understand how to adapt your communication.
Leighann Lovely: And as you were saying that I'm thinking, oh my God, you know, I'm that person who like literally just shows up and I'm [00:14:00] like, Oh, what, you know, I know what I like. And I'm like, do you have something like this on the menu? Great. That's what I want. Like, whereas where, you know, like, I, I, you know, I know what I like to eat because we all know what we like, but I don't, I'm not present until I'm there.
Once I'm there, I'm present, I am, I am where I am when I'm there, but until I'm there, I'm, I'm still where I was, which drives, which drives, I think my husband insane because he's the guy who's looking up the menu, looking at the reviews, making sure it's, you know, and then talking about what our daughter is going to be able to eat when she goes there, she's six.
So, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, and I'm like, I don't, I don't care. Like, I don't know, does that make me a bad mom? I'm not leaving, I'm not thinking, like, I show up when I show up, and then I'm present, and maybe that is a personality flaw, but it's like, I just, I'm not one of those [00:15:00] people who has the capacity to plan until it's happening.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. And I mean,
Leighann Lovely: vacation really hard
Eric Forrestal: or really fun for you, you know, I mean, come on. But some people, if you think about it, you know, there's some people that really enjoy the planning of the vacation where it's like, you know, I like to be surprised and there's some people that like to know what they have to look forward to.
And I asked my son that all the time where it's like, Hey, do you want to know what we're doing? Or do you just want to do it? And he's a much more of a, you know, I just want to go do it, you know, don't question me on it. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't think it's bad because you got to look at it in the sense of, if you look at disc, there's, there's There's two, there's four types of orientations.
So you're either people oriented or you're task oriented and you're either extroverted or you're introverted. And so if you look at those two orientations of, of people oriented or task oriented, the person that is planning the vacation is way more task oriented. They're [00:16:00] way more, okay. I want to know where we're going.
I'm going to look at, you know, the best deal for the hotel room, the flights, all that I'm going to make sure it's going to be planned to the bone and I'm going to get. A little bit annoyed. If, if it goes, if it doesn't go to plan, you know, and I'm like, what city are we going to? We just got to figure out how to get there.
Right. I don't know why there's all these plans. We just have to get, you know, we just have to get there safely. Right. Okay. And then when we get there, let's just figure it out. And so.
Leighann Lovely: Now it planes, trains and automobiles is just popping into my head as you have the picture. We just have to get there.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And it's, it's kind of funny. Cause like the reason I love that is there's, those are both sales guys, right?
Marker
Eric Forrestal: So there's two sales. And one character is, you know, in a nice tie, a suit, he has everything planned. And then, you know, the other one's John Candy. So it's just, and they're both successful salesmen.
You know, that's the thing is they're both good at what they do. It doesn't take anything away. It's just, you do it different [00:17:00] ways. And I think it's such a, an approach where, you know, I, I, I've, I've trained so many salespeople and everyone thinks that a good salesperson has to be an extrovert. A good salesman has to be, you know, this, this loud, obnoxious guy.
And that's just not the case at all. And some of the best salespeople I've ever met or trained have been complete task driven introverts where it's like they have the best relationships because if you get, you know, if they're, they have to build a relationship for them to talk. So they build, they, they make sure to build the relationship.
And then. They have a, they're so organized in their tasks and making sure that they're doing everything. They're following up. They're doing all those things. And so, um, so, yeah, so it's, it's interesting. It's interesting. And I think the biggest thing that I like to do is show people their bright spots and their blind spots.
So not only show them how they communicate, but go, Hey, this is where you may have to Take a deep breath and do a little bit more work when you're communicating with this type of person, [00:18:00]
Leighann Lovely: right? And see when you say a task orientated person, I I am a hundred percent a task orientated person However, if you look at my disc results, you'd go she's not at all.
Yeah, but I come from an HR background So there's process that, you know, in place, like, and the reason I say I'm a task oriented person, and this is just something that, you know, I grew up with two parents who are in real estate.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: And so I grew up in a sales family, just a hundred percent through and through sales.
That is, you can't get any more sales than. Real estate agents who are on commission making their own. Right. I mean, it's just one of those things that my father managed, you know, 60 plus agents at any given time, he managed one of the largest offices that they had there and continued, you know, and he started with a very small office, continued to move up in the company and, you know, [00:19:00] And then his wife was just a producer, not just a producer, was one of the top producers for the company for many years running.
And, he had always referred to, he's like, well, I'm a task oriented person. Like I, something, you know, something comes in front of me. And I get it done, move it off my plate, so I know that I can move on to the next thing. Otherwise, you're just constantly having explosions happening, and that's when things fall through the cracks.
That's how you lose clients. That's how you lose prospects. That's how you lose relationships. It's when you're not following up properly, or you're not nurturing those relationships and doing what you promised. And that's why, uh, I don't promise something if I don't plan to deliver that and so I, I create every or I treat every relationship as the next task, the next, and I'm, sounds like I'm minimizing that to something, but it really, it's, it's not, it's making it bite [00:20:00] sized pieces of something that you can take on in a way.
That is process. And most people don't, they're not built to do that. But I was, you know, I went to school for computer programming at one time. I went to school and I graduated with my bachelor's in HR. So that's, you know, there's a process. And if you follow that, even being a complete spaz half the time, because I am a salesperson.
You know, if something's broken at my house, I go and fix it, right? It's done. It's done. And then I don't have to think about it. And it doesn't create lists upon lists, upon lists of stuff that I'm like, Oh my God, I have to get to that list. And oh my gosh, I have to get, which just causes stress, especially for somebody who's an extrovert, who just wants to be out there around people.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I always, you know, when I, whenever I coach sales or teach people with sales, I always say, lean on what you're good at first, like understand what you're good at first. Right. And so I always [00:21:00] laugh at people that go to a networking event because they know that they need to because everyone else is doing it in real estate agents and loan officers do this the most.
I personally love networking events. You know, it's funny because. People always talk about the introvert that needs to be alone in order to go out, right? You ever hear that where it's like, Oh, my God, I need my alone time. I have a, I have a thing tonight. I need to be alone before I go out. And it's just the opposite for an extrovert where I need those networking events.
And I need to be around people in order for me to go back and work in my office. Like, I need to go if I'm working in an office with other people, I need to go to the break room and go. Chat it up with some people and say, hi, if I have an hour task that I need to do back in my office or whatever it is.
 But I always laugh at networking events because you can tell the people that don't want to be there. Like it's almost like they hang out together and don't talk together because they're like, Hey, I'll stand here. If you stand there and I won't talk to you, if you don't talk to me, it's like they have this like secret [00:22:00] understanding, you know, but I always tell people to lean in what they're good at.
And so if you're good at those networking events, Go to those networking events. Look, if you're good at building really, really good relationships and getting referrals based off of your past clients, lean into that. You know, and, and it's just, it's kind of like, that's why I love desk because right away it rips off the band aid of going.
Okay, let's talk, you know, take your desk. This is based off of an assessment that you took. Let's talk about it. And the first thing I do is I'll break it down and talk about what they feel is accurate, what they feel is inaccurate.
Marker
Eric Forrestal: All I do is ask questions. I don't tell them anything. I just ask questions.
And it's funny because they'll go along with this. They'll look at their assessment and be like, Oh, it's so accurate here. It's so accurate here. This is absolutely 100 percent me. The only part that is inaccurate is this negative thing that I don't like. Right? Two negative things that are on the assessment that says that I'm bad at.
That's inaccurate. And it's [00:23:00] like, okay, all right. So let's talk about that, you know, and, and it's funny because you talked about those lists and all those things. It's just finding a way to do it where I'm not a list guy either. Uh, I used to be really good at waking up in the morning and making a list of everything that I had to do today.
Right. And then after about the second thing, it was like, drink coffee, go, you know, drink coffee and eat breakfast. Cool. And then after that, I didn't do anything else that was on the list. Right. You know, and I felt like a lot of people struggle with that. But what I started doing is I'd realize, okay, what What am I doing for the next half hour?
Okay, I need to do these three things in the next half hour.
Leighann Lovely: Right.
Eric Forrestal: Otherwise, I'll get distracted. I'll go somewhere else.
Leighann Lovely: Like,
Eric Forrestal: otherwise, I'm over here. But what it allows me to do is it gives me a deadline of like, that's pretty quick, because if you give me all day to clean my house, it's going to take me all day to clean my house.
But if you give me an hour to clean my house, it'll be, it'll be clean in an hour. And there's some people that can absolutely write an entire list. And then [00:24:00] they are the ones that like, love. Going through it all day and then at the end of their day, they're like, when they're crossing off that last thing, it's the happiest thing for them, you know, so
Leighann Lovely: right.
And I just, when I have a list of things to do, I get anxiety over that because I'm, I'm one of those people who are like, no, it needs to be done right now. I do it. And now I don't have a compiling list. It's like, just done, done, done, done, done.
Eric Forrestal: I could think, I think. The bad thing with me is I could think of a hundred things that need to get done right now.
Like, if you were to ask me, give me a hundred things that need to get done, I could list them all. But, but that's, that's my problem is, is like, what needs to get done? Well, there's a lot of stuff that needs to get done. What can I do right now? You know, like that's that.
Leighann Lovely: And ultimately it comes down to what has to be done today.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: What, what, you know, what is their time? You know, I, yeah, I'd love to redo my website. I'd love to re, you know, [00:25:00] I'd love to reorganize all the files in my entire drive, but that doesn't need to be done today.
Eric Forrestal: Right.
Leighann Lovely: It's, you know, for me, it's a matter of what keeps business moving forward right now. So what needs to get done today?
And I refer to these as revenue generating tasks. What are my revenue generating tasks that need to be done today in order to keep my business moving forward in order to keep my clients? businesses moving forward. And that's ultimately what that comes down to because you're right. Everybody has a million and 10 things that they could do today and including, you know, feeding my child, my dog, all of the other, you know, but those don't go on, those don't go on the list.
Those are things that you sit in the back, you know, that they, In the back of your head, when all of a sudden you're like, wow, I have two hours of time,
Eric Forrestal: right?
Leighann Lovely: I could actually get some of this other stuff done. [00:26:00]
Eric Forrestal: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. No, that's so that's wildly wildly. It's so interesting and not only disc, but I also, have you, have you ever heard of the working genius?
Oh, yeah.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. I think that's a very relatable thing. And I think a lot of that's derived from disc.
Leighann Lovely: Got mad when I saw my results, but they're correct.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: They are a hundred percent correct.
Eric Forrestal: Well, I think there's a difference between two, like another part of what I do is what's called
Marker
Eric Forrestal: key motivators.
Cause I think there's one thing in the way that we behave and communicate, but then there's another way of what we're motivated by doing. Right. So there's kind of like, there's, you're talking about two different things there. And the way we communicate, behave is always interesting to me because it can change.
It can intentionally change or it can unintentionally change. Whereas what I noticed with a lot of people, you know, when they have kids there, the way they behave and communicate can change. Sometimes they're D all of a sudden they didn't have, they were very low on the D and they were never dominant.
Well, [00:27:00] now they got to be yelling at kid, you know, they got to yell at their kid all the time, depending on what age their kid is. Or it's the complete opposite where if they didn't have, you know, if they were very low on the high S where they weren't patient at all. And all of a sudden they have a kid and they take their disc, you know, 6 months after all of a sudden they're way more patient and they care about different things and they communicate differently and all those things.
 I always tell a story between 2022 and 2023. You know, I had my natural and adaptive, uh, scores, where my natural score, you know, I was a high D, a high I, and a moderate S, always, always, always, always a low C, where I'm, if I send you an email, you're probably going to have a, you know, a spelling error, unless someone Someone checked it for me.
But, uh, so I realized that in my adaptive, my ID was going even higher and my s was sinking really low. And so I noticed, I was like, okay, so in my adaptive state, meaning if there's an issue with a client, if there's something different, all of a sudden my patients was going down and my high [00:28:00] D was going up, and I was like, whoa, okay, gotta look at this.
So basically I was becoming an asshole. Like, I don't know, there's no other way to put it. Like I was, I remember looking at that and being like, oh man, it was. So whenever you get stressed, you just act out of pocket like that. And uh, and I remember it was a, it was a, a thing that I could look back on and be like, okay, where did things go wrong with this client?
Where did things go wrong with this person that I'm working with? Or however it went. I was like, well dude, this is it. It's clear as day. So I literally started using green notepads and green post-Its just to remember to keep my patients. So I'd be on the phone and all of a sudden I'd look at a green post-it and I'd be like, oh, all right.
Musab or whatever, you know, whatever I would say to right. Myself down. And that was an intention. Yeah. And that was an intentional change where it was like, Hey, like, at least be consistent. So now I'm at least just an asshole all the time, right? Like my natural adaptive are the same. Like overall, my ass went down a little bit, but now my natural and adaptive are the same where I started to notice those times where I'd get stressed or, you know, act a little bit differently.
 [00:29:00] Now fast forward from 20. Okay. 23 to 2024 earlier this year when I took it, you know, I, I had started workforce renegades, you know, a year or two ago. Well, I'm, I'm it like, I'm here at workforce renegades. So there's no one looking over my shoulder checking my budgets. There's no one doing any of these things.
Right? Well, my analytical skills were always low. Like, they just, they were always below a five. I just felt like there was always an, an occasional An accountant somewhere that could look over my stuff for me. Well, just inherently, because I have to, I have to look at my calendar. I have to look at the spell check on my emails.
I have to do those things. Not saying it went up a crazy amount, but my analytical skills got better just because I got thrown into a position where I had to do it a lot more. So my C in 2024 was the highest it's ever been. It's only, it's still only at a 16, but that's pretty good, right? I mean. Compared to what it was, so the interesting thing about disc for me is always that you can intentionally change or if you're like, you know what, I'm in a [00:30:00] leadership position and I need to be more direct.
Like, I beat around the bush too much and people walk over me. I need to be more direct. That's an intentional change that you could make. It's an uncomfortable one, but.
Leighann Lovely: And, and I've, because of how direct I know that I have been,
Eric Forrestal: it's
Leighann Lovely: certain, I, I've had to peel that back and find that empathetic side with certain people.
Because I know that I can come off as, as kind of a bitch. Like you walk up to somebody and you're like, here, I need you to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden, and there have been times where I'm like, Oh, I need to correct. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. How was your weekend?
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. But there's,
Leighann Lovely: it's okay.
I know that you can do that. And I'm like, no, but it's rude. Like I should at least like ask you and they're like, well, I appreciate that you're trying to make the effort. And I'm like, I know, I know, but I can be really overwhelming at times. And, and I, and I'll, I'll call myself [00:31:00] out because it's like, and I tell my people too, like, it's okay to do it in an appropriate manner.
If I'm being too If I'm, if I'm being too direct, if I'm being inappropriate, like you, in an appropriate manner, in an appropriate situation, you, you need to tell me, because I don't know if, if I am, and I've had some, I've had some of them be like, okay, that, like, that was a little, That was a little much and I'm like, okay, then I'm, I'm going to apologize.
And I want to thank you for, for telling me because, and again, because I've, I've learned from my person, my
Eric Forrestal: own. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, I think it goes both ways. And I, I'm going to say a couple of things there because I think it all depends on
Marker
Eric Forrestal: what message you're trying to deliver to deliver and who you're Trying to deliver it to, right?
So if you have a team and you're just trying to get in, you're trying to give orders. Like, I think a big thing is [00:32:00] for them more to understand that you're direct. So if this is the way you communicate, and this is the way that, that you. Are I think it's them understanding it and saying, Hey, I'm not abrasive.
I'm not being a bitch. This is just like on a daily, I shouldn't, I shouldn't have to adapt to everyone right away. Now here's another thing. If you're coaching someone that's different. So it's like one thing, if you're directing an order or if you're, you know, running a meeting, like you have to, you have to communicate in your exact way.
Now, if me and you are doing a one on one and you're coaching me on what I'm doing, then you kind of have to understand my communication style that that point. That's where you go. Okay. All right. Well, Eric, how was your weekend? Tell me everything. All right. Right. And so I think that there's that difference because if you're just caught in an adaptive space all the time, you're going to end up hating you.
You're going to hate the leadership position. If you have to be soft and, you know, like be a little bit easy on everyone. Now with sales, it's interesting because you know, I'll give workshops [00:33:00] and presentations. And I always ask, like, you know, I always raise a show of hands. How many of us. Uh, have a favorite client, you know, and, and, and I'll hear stories of people's favorite clients and my favorite ones are the ones, Oh, the ones that buy cash and whatever.
And it's like, no, what I, what I mean by like, do you find yourself with the same type of client again and again and again, like, and there you do typically people gravitate towards the people they communicate best with. So if I'm very direct, I'm going to get along with very direct people. If I'm very, you know, if you ask me about my day and I actually tell you about my entire day, I'm going to get along with people that tell me about their entire day, you know, and, and go back and forth and we can sit here and bullshit for 20 minutes before we actually get into the meat of it.
 I'm not a numbers guy. So my hardest clients, the clients that I didn't like were the numbers guys. Right. Cause we all have clients where it's like, you look at them and you're like, why are you the way that you are? Like, why are you asking me that question right now? You know, and, and it would happen all the time in real [00:34:00] estate.
It would be like, I'd show someone the perfect house. I knew the numbers made sense because, you know, I've been looking at the numbers for the past couple of days. And then I'd say, all right, you know, this seems like the perfect house. You guys don't have any objections. And it was that always that higher C that would be like, well, we want to sleep on it.
And it, you know, me knowing that there's already two offers on the house and they're making a decision at 8 PM and it's five. I'm like, so are you going to like go home and take a quick nap or, cause this house isn't going to be here tomorrow, you know, and then I would rub them the wrong way. Because here I was trying to pressure them where at the end of the day, they just needed, they needed more numbers and time to think so I kind of switched it up where, you know, I'd be a little bit more direct with them, but I'd, I'd make sure, hey, what numbers are you going to need?
What numbers are important to you? Let me get you this before we even go to the showing. Hey, I just want to let you know in this market. There's a good chance that there might be an offer on the house and we might need to make a decision after the showing. So I just want you to be prepared for that, you know?
Now, Hi I, if I show a [00:35:00] Hi I a shit ton of numbers before the showing, they're gonna be like, I can't afford it! Or like, We're going to, it's going to be a waste of both of our times. Cause they're just going to want to fall in love with the house and then figure out how to make it work afterwards. You know what I mean?
Leighann Lovely: Oh yeah. That's how I bought my house. And because my parents were real estate agents, I literally walked in and looked at my dad and I said, can I afford this? And he goes, no, but you can make it work.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Love the honesty.
Leighann Lovely: And we bought it and we've made it work. We've lived here now for five years.
So
Eric Forrestal: that's funny.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. It's great. When you have your parents who are real estate agents, they can really, you know, themselves. Pretty easy conversation. Hey, dad, you know, my finances, can I buy this? Right. But anyways, anyways, we are coming to time, but this is, it's such an interesting dynamic. Like again, you know, like I'm going to, I'm going to flash back here for a second to 20 years ago when, you know, we, yes, you know, I've taken, [00:36:00] when did disc start?
Like when?
Eric Forrestal: Yeah, the 1920s actually.
Leighann Lovely: Okay. So it's been around by
Eric Forrestal: a psychologist that actually invented Wonder Woman. Believe it or not.
Leighann Lovely: Wow.
Eric Forrestal: Very
Leighann Lovely: random facts. Okay. So, you know, I've taken desk, you know, over the years, a million. Times and as I've evolved as a person, my results have evolved, you know, over time consistently, I've always been a high I, always had that high D, but they've shifted a little bit over as I've, you know, I've, I have always, however, found it interesting.
And I now find it even more interesting how we're able to use that to not understand ourselves. As much as we're using it to understand other people. And I love, I love people. I absolutely, I'm the person who, if I go to a networking meeting, if I stay too late, [00:37:00] then I come home and I'm like all wound up and my husband's like, aren't you tired?
And I'm like, I could go three rounds in a ring with Mike Tyson right now.
No, that's where I get my energy. I'm like, Oh my God. You know, it's like, give me a shot of. You know, something so I can calm down. But I, I just, I love, I love the study of humans. So this conversation has been really, really fun. So I am going to give you your 30 second pitch before we wrap up. Shameless pitch.
There you go.
Eric Forrestal: Yeah, sure. So I do a one on one coaching. I do consulting and I do workshops. So, uh, everything is based around your disc assessment. And what I really like to show people is what they're already doing, how to build intention behind it, and should really show you your bright spots and then also your blind spots.
So, been in sales for over 20 years. I do Sales, recruiting, training, and leadership for, for more service industry and blue collar companies, uh, companies in the trades is kind of, you know, my wheelhouse. [00:38:00] So that's
Leighann Lovely: where can they reach out to you?
Eric Forrestal: Yeah, they can either fight, you know, you can look up workforce renegades online.
 Www. workforcerenegades. com is going to be the easiest way. Otherwise we're on all the social media platforms as well.
Leighann Lovely: And your website, , information will be on the show notes. So if somebody wants to reach out to Eric, you can find that information there. Eric, this has been such an awesome conversation.
I really do appreciate it.
Eric Forrestal: Awesome. Thank you for having me.
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Robb Conlon: Thanks for joining us for Love Your Sales. [00:39:00] For More, connect with Leanne on LinkedIn and be sure to subscribe to the show and leave us a rating in review. We'd love to hear what you think, looking for a way to take your sales process to the next level. Visit us@loveyoursales.com to find out more about how Leanne can take your organization to new Revenue Heights.
And be sure to join us next time for more great ways to love your customers so they love your [00:40:00] sales.

Building Trust and Relationships in Commercial Lending

In this episode of Love Your Sales, Leighann sits down with Dan Hanson, a commercial lending officer with Kohler Credit Union. They dive deep into the intricacies of building successful relationships in sales and the importance of authenticity when dealing with clients. Dan shares insights from his 21-year career, discussing the value of networking, the role of mentorship, and how to balance professional goals with personal integrity. The conversation emphasizes the significance of giving back to the community and the shared mission of helping small businesses thrive. Additionally, Dan offers practical tips for young sales professionals on how to harness their people skills for career success. Don't miss this enriching dialogue that combines practical advice with inspiring stories from the field.
 
Contact Dan –
LinkedIn – Linkedin.com\danjameshanson
Email - dhanson@kohlercu.com
 
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Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
 
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
 
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 Channel Subscribe link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-O7W9DzaRv4waodQKCprIg?sub_confirmation=1
 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am joined today by Dan Hanson. He is a commercial lending officer with Kohler Credit Union with vast experience in cash flow management, merchant services, treasury management, and commercial lending. He can originate SBA loans, both in 405 and 7a products, as well as in commercial and investment, real estate, equipment, [00:02:00] and vehicle financing.
I am so thrilled to have Dan join me today because I'm excited to talk about the nuances specifically in the business that he's in. So welcome Dan.
Dan Hanson: Thank you, Leanne. Great to be here. And I appreciate the conversation today.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. So you have what, five years in your current industry, but you're no, spring chicken when it comes to sales 20 years.
Dan Hanson: Yeah. Just over 21 years, going back to 2003 and I graduated with my undergrad.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. So let's, let's dive in and, uh, let's talk about sales because, well, that's the topic I love to talk about. First, Why don't you, you know, kind of introduce yourself anything that I missed on that short little brief introduction?
 You know, let's, chat. Let's.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, yeah, you pretty much nailed it. It is the it's the 504 product on the SBA, not 405. Yeah. Oh, minute detail, but, [00:03:00] um. Yes, as a commercial lending officer, you know, I've worked with businesses and investor groups specifically in my role currently, just in the real estate transactions.
Mostly I should say mostly, you know, I've done work with previous FIs where I have. Worked with businesses on their treasury management, you know, the fraud protection mitigation side of things, as well as, uh, payments and also merchant services and, you know, credit cards and everything. So I've got a, and the reason why I think that's important is because in my current role, while I'm just focusing on lending, I'm able to talk to business owners about their overall business and what I can do to either introduce them to people in my network, such as yourself.
Or give my own advice on things or opinions and, mostly introductions. So, uh, it's really served me well. Again, I focus primarily right now just on lending, which is my favorite side of the business. Most of the transactions I do a real estate and the reason why I love that is everybody understands it right?
There's an appraisal value that everybody understands. This is what we [00:04:00] need and this is how the, uh, this is how the cash flow supports the property. But I, you know, as you mentioned in the bio, I can do equipment, financing vehicle, all that fun stuff. I can do lines of credit. I can do a B rock on an investment property and then the SBA catches kind of everything else.
Leighann Lovely: Very interesting. And something that we were talking about prior to jumping on here was that, you know, Hey, I'm a business owner. I need a loan. I'm just going to walk into the bank and, um, I'm going to talk with this person, but you kind of mentioned that, you know, that's, that's not really how your industry works.
So let's, let's talk about that.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, I think, you know, when people think about banking, they don't really think about sales necessarily, uh, especially in my role. It's different on the retail side, right? You know, if you're going to get a car loan, you know, oftentimes, if you're a member of a credit union, you're going to call them 1st, you've got a relationship with them.
You know, somebody at the branch, you know, that's just kind of, how it goes on the commercial side. It that's that's not it entirely. Uh, you know, I don't [00:05:00] get anybody calling into my office, you know, asking to buy a 1Million dollar car loan. Property, so it's really about forging those relationships, both with networkers and referral sources and also just with the business owners themselves.
So I have a very tall order and I've set a lot of lofty expectations for myself about getting out and meeting new people and I will meet anyone. I don't care if you've got a muffler business, or you're a personal trainer that goes into people's homes, you have value. And I would love to help in any way that I can.
It's all about helping small business owners specifically, but you never know what that's going to lead to. So, it has served me well by never saying no to a meeting, because I oftentimes. We'll have that introduction and nothing will happen for 18 months to 2 years, but it's being there at that right moment when they are ready to purchase something and they think of you and that's where, you know, kind of the rubber hits the road.
So, you know, I've networked with a lot of [00:06:00] people on your show. You know, Ben Zhang comes to mind. He's an absolute serial networker. He's just wonderful. Great referral partner. And he's out there. Forging new relationships and bringing me along, which is great. And vice versa. So I think the, the, the notion that, you know, we just sit in our big offices and, and count beans is kind of a misnomer.
Uh, in my role, we're out there, you know, killing what we eat.
Leighann Lovely: Amazing. So, you know, the, the common theme, um, of every single person practically that has ever, that I've ever spoken with on, You know, my, my podcast here is that networking, communication. Talking with people, putting yourself out there is one of the most important aspects to being successful in sales, right?
I mean, it's, it really comes down to who, you know, but your industry is niche. It's not like, I [00:07:00] mean, it's not like I'm, even considering right now going and buying a property or a vehicle or, you know, my business. And in fact, As it stands right now, I'm like, well, I'm just going to stay remote forever.
No overhead. So you're really looking at the long game, the people who may not even know that one day they need you.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, and it's been on the lips of the mouths of the people that are talking to those business owners like you, know, you're constantly talking to business owners or sales executives.
And at that moment, when they say, you know, we had a really good year and our accountants recommended, we buy a building to offset some, you know, whatever. Then you're like, oh, I've got a guy for that. That happens all the time. And to be honest, I think back to how you and I met. I don't know if you remember this, but, I, I just joined the.
Brookfield chamber, which, you know, I think we were both very fond of and still are, and you, it was like, 1 of the 1st meetings I had attended and you were named a new member of the [00:08:00] year, uh, and your 1st year. And I was super impressed by that. And then just hearing how many things you attended in that 1st year, how many 1 on 1s you had, how many relationships you built that was like.
I need to meet this woman. And so I gave you my card and I cornered you for lunch very shortly after the pandemic. Not sure if you remember, it's a Bravo at Brookfield Square. But yeah, I mean, being with like minded people like you, understanding that, Yes. It's a numbers game where you just need to meet a broad, very group of people, but having, you know, meaningful connections with a, with a good, small group of people is so key.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. Wow. I, do remember the first time that we, we met, but I did not hear the story as to why, but you're, you're absolutely right. The more people that know you that, and that follows you. And because when we first met. I'm trying to think of the job that I was at at that time. That was a couple of [00:09:00] jobs ago.
Dan Hanson: Right, right. Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: And, and those networks, those relationships, and I doubt that you remember the job that I was, and maybe you do, but, it, that job has been long gone. You're not going to call the company I used to work at. If you need help with something related to, you're going to call me and that's the beauty of building basically a sales force of people out there who literally are just referring business because they like you.
I mean, I'm, assuming here at this point, Dan, that you like me.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, I'm a big fan.
Leighann Lovely: It's an entire sales force of people out there who basically are saying, Oh, Hey, I, and you brought up Ben Zhang. And even when, when I interviewed him, he made the comment, I want to be the guy that knows the guy. [00:10:00] That knows the guy that knows the guy like that is my entire purpose. I want to be that guy that knows the guy and I want to be the person that knows the person that can help no matter what the problem is.
And that's that the beauty of that. of when you surround yourself with people who are all saying, yeah, I want to be that person too. Like if you need something, I have a Rolodex. But here's the part that could hurt is if all of the sudden you drop off, you disappear, somebody is very likely to be able to slot themselves in and become that person.
So how do you make sure that you continue to remain the person that knows the person and stay. On top and top of that list of the people that.
Dan Hanson: It's such a good question, man. It's such a good question. And, um, it takes work. [00:11:00] And I often liken this to relationships with friends. It's not, it's not unlike each other.
So I'm a very social person, very outgoing. I thrive on being with people. It's my, you know, I don't golf alone. I don't go to the movies alone. I don't eat alone. I have to be with people. So, uh, as a result, I've met a lot of friends, thankfully, and kept in touch with almost all of them because it takes work.
And what I mean by that is whenever I think of somebody that I haven't talked to in a while, I will immediately send them a message. And, you know, and again, I'm speaking strictly with friends, but, um, you know, I'll just say, Hey, how's it going? You know, how's your mom or how's the thing or where have you been lately?
You know, whatever it is. And I'll try to make plans. I'll try to hey, you know, let's golf. Let's get lunch. Let's do something And and it's the same with businesses and networking partners when I think of them I will I will drop a line and it's just in different forms then so oftentimes i'll send them something on linkedin Say, hey, I thought of you read this, check this out, [00:12:00] or I'll actually do personal cards, which I love and I typically do that 1 or 2 times a year.
Just do a mass mailer of personal cards while write out individual notes to people and send them a thought of you. Let's keep in touch. You know, here's my number. You know, we haven't talked to whatever it is. And with the advent of all the social media, you can reach people any number of ways and not be too invasive.
So, I just think it takes a little work. But I think you're right. The other the other side of it is, and what serves me so well. So, I was a member, I still am a member of 5 chambers and I've done the BNI. I've done, you know, uh, different, you know, I've done Rotary. I've done all the things, right?
All the networking things. And I've taken what I liked and emulated those. Things and formed a group of my own. And so right now we're 11 people. We, we meet once a month, the first Tuesday of every month that we met yesterday and your name came up, uh, actually outside of this podcast, somebody in my group said, Hey, I'm talking with Leanne, you know, [00:13:00] what do you guys know about her?
And I was the first to say, she's delightful. I'm going to be on a podcast tomorrow. And then another of the group members said really glowing things about you that I can say, I'll say off camera. So the name's not out there. But anyway, we took the things that we liked and I, and I brought Ben and Nate fair with me and we started with 3 simple rules.
We have to like, you as a person. Uh, that's the 1st 1 I want to hang out with you socially 1st, you know, no matter what, when you join the chamber, there's a, you know, we used to get 75 people at breakfast in Brookfield and no matter how amazing the chamber is. You know, oftentimes there's like 1 person you're just like, not jiving with.
You're like, I'm never going to refer to that person. So we had to start there. And then the second thing is you have to be open to both give and receive referrals. You know, I, I brought somebody into the organization early on and then they were like, okay, I don't have any capacity to take any new clients.
And I said, okay, I'm sorry. You got to leave. We need to be able to send you stuff. It was very good.
Leighann Lovely: You gotta leave.
Dan Hanson: I took them to lunch and it was a [00:14:00] nice breakup, but you know, I'm paraphrasing, uh, for time's sake, but you know, we had, that's, we're all in the network to give people business. And then the last thing is we had to primarily work.
 And for the most part, all 11 of us almost work exclusively with business owners. So those 3 things have served us really well. And also bringing people in 1st, we don't we back into the person, not the industry. Okay, so I love this person. What they do, does that work with us? And that has also served well to invite people in.
And so that's the work, right? And surrounding yourself with the people that want to be, like you said, those mass networkers. And it's been amazing.
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. And I like how you kind of broke that down, that analysis of, like, it doesn't make sense to have somebody there And I guess the other thing is why are you there if you can't take on more business?
That's the time where you're, you should have your head down focusing on what you can do [00:15:00] or focusing on executing on the business that you have and figuring out how you can take on more business. As a business owner, that's what I'm going to be doing. Like if I'm at capacity, I need to figure out how I can scale to, unless, and again, let me, let me back up.
If you're happy, At that capacity, you're not, you have no desire to scale. Then why are you out there? But if you do want to scale to be bigger, then you should be figuring out how to do that before you're back out there networking, because then it's, I feel like it's, I shouldn't say it's a waste of time.
I was about to say it's a waste of time. It's never a waste of time to create relationships. It's never a waste of time to continue to nurture that network and stay in front of people. But if the sole goal of a group that you're part of is to take on new, you know, new business and pass [00:16:00] new business.
Yeah, you're right. It's not beneficial to the people in that other group. So I commend you for making sure, you know, Hey, these are the boxes that everybody needs to check to be here. Let's make sure that we're staying on point.
Dan Hanson: Yeah. And, uh, we've had, we had, you know, a really good conversation and, and it was basically, made aware that the group was so good.
He just didn't want to say no. You know, it was, um, it's been amazing. Honestly, I can't tell you enough. Like it's been one of the things that, that buoys me because my industry is subject to a lot of different economic factors and there's ups and downs and, you know, real estate bubbles and all of that. So, being with a group of, uh, like minded individuals that have your back.
Has been the best part of my working career. And so it's, you know, we've got a, we've got a mission statement. We've got officers. We track absences. Uh, we've done, guest speaking events. So, you know, we brought in Derek debris. I think I introduced you to him a while ago. And he did a free seminar for, you know, [00:17:00] business owners.
We ended up bringing 50 business owners and I catered lunch. You know, they all got swag and they got a free 1 hour seminar. It's amazing. We've done charity events. We're actually going to do a guest bartending event for the Wisconsin division of Oprah, which is the ovarian cancer research alliance.
So part of our mission statement is that we're dedicated to steward the business owners in the communities in which we live and work. And all of that comes back to giving back. So I've got a tattoo on my arm in Irish that says, To those much is given, much is expected. I feel like I've been given a tremendous amount in my life, you know, started with, I think, the great foundations that allowed me to be successful.
And so I want to give back, you know, and here's the time to do it. And now I have the means and the energy. And so all of us are very good about giving of our time, especially amongst the group members in our various fields of expertise, both to each other and their clients.
Leighann Lovely: I am a huge believer that what you put out into the world, [00:18:00] what you give to the world comes back to you.
And I see it in those who are so generous in giving. The people who are so unbelievably generous, so, I mean, the, the kind of people who you look at and you talk with, and you're like, wow, this person would literally give me the shirt off their back if I needed it, are the ones who rise to the top.
 It's not something you can teach. It's something that is just in them it and it's, um, and they really truly are the ones who, and I'm not talking about rising to the top and they're millionaires and they're, but they're the people in the community that their names are the ones who are being thrown around constantly.
The Ben Zangs of the world who, if I called him today and said, Hey, I need this. He'd be like, yeah, I can. And it's not like he's, he's my best friend in the world. He is truly a [00:19:00] business associate that I have met who has become a friend. And it's, it's the people like you who are giving your time, your energy, because you're capable of doing that.
And it's, and, and the success follows. And it's amazing to see and watch that. And then you see those who are just getting by that you can tell just a little bit that their intent is Much more selfish. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that in sales. We have to be a little selfish.
Our intent is to sell, make the company money. That's the goal, but as salespeople, we need to remember that our product is not for everybody. And that selling them, selling on, you know, selling somebody on [00:20:00] something that may not be perfect for them, in my opinion, is, is not ethical. I don't think it's moral.
 And that if we as salespeople are willing to explain that to somebody, Like, Hey, this product is probably not right for you as much as it hurts the first time. And it did the first time I had to go, Oh my gosh, my product is not right. And they are ready to say yes, but like, this isn't right. It's they're not going to be happy.
They're going to leave. It was so liberating and it felt good at the end of the day. I mean, not for my, my pocketbook. But it felt good at the end of the day to know that I did the right thing. And guess what? Another sale came along that was right. And I was thoroughly happy, thoroughly thrilled that the match was made.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, oftentimes the best thing you do is just open another door for somebody, right? You [00:21:00] know, I, what I say to people is it's not a no, it's just a not me. Uh, I can't do this for you, but here are two other people that I want to introduce you to that might be able to help. You know, I don't want to ever over promise, but, you know, the commercial lending world on the underwriting side is, uh, pretty foreign to most people.
Marker
Dan Hanson: I would say, you know, if you go out and buy a house, right, they're going to look at your DTI. They're going to look at your credit score. They're going to spit out a rate and there you go. You kind of pre qualified. It's so much different on the commercial side. You know, we put together. 5060 page what we call LPs or presentations basically for each credit that we look at and we get in and in my specific shop, we're credit experts.
We dive in and we understand everything about the industry 1st. You know? All right. This is, uh, you know, let's just say it's a manufacturing business in Waukesha County, right? We're going to do all the research on those specific things in the, in the county and the industry itself and what the trends are.
Obviously, we understand everything about the borrower. And then we just kind of, you know, work into the numbers just to see if it makes sense because [00:22:00] ultimately, you know, what our concerns are as a lender should be the concerns of the, you know, the borrower. Right? Um, you know, just because you're putting your money on the line, so are we, and, you know, and we're slapping a lien on your property.
So we want to make sure that it's a good investment for both of us. And that's the hardest thing for people to understand is they just have it in their minds that they want to buy this building. You know, at any cost, seemingly, and I'll make it work and I got this asset and it has to be good for me.
And what I have to tell them, and this is similar to what you were saying when you have to say no to somebody is you say, this is why right? Give them the why behind what for these 4 reasons. It doesn't make sense for you or I to enter into this transaction.
Leighann Lovely: And absolutely. And that builds your, your know, like, and trust the trust factor in that right there is that all of the sudden you've just made them trust you that much more. And even though you aren't going to be doing business with them right now, you've just become a trusted [00:23:00] ally in their network. And.
When somebody comes to them and they, you know, and they say, well, where did you get this loan done? They're very much more likely to say, well, you know, I originally went to Dan Hanson and we couldn't do business together, but. Here's this gentleman. I, I got mine from XYZ, but the reason I, you know, went to them is because I had this situation, blah, blah, blah.
You now become a trusted ally despite the fact that you're not even doing business with them.
Dan Hanson: Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: That's powerful. That is really, really powerful.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, I, uh, I firmly believe like what you said, you know, what you put out. If you do the, do the right thing, First, like you said, the money will follow, ultimately for me, it's also just sleeping well at night.
You know, I have two young kids, a wife that I adore, you know, my life is really good. And I know that, um, if I do the right things during the day, that they'll be proud of me, no matter [00:24:00] what. I also, I have to say, because I think this is so important, you know, you, this is, I'm sure geared towards sales executives and salespeople, you know, kind of in the, in the bullpen, uh, alike.
I have the best boss in the world. He is not only is he a credit wizard. So I can bring him the most complicated deals and he can see through it. He understands what it's like to be a human and understands what it's like to be in my role and doing what I'm doing. And he affords me the luxury of autonomy, which is great.
Because, you know, I said to them. If I don't make my numbers, feel free to come down on me as hard as you want, but I'm going to hit that number. You know, last year I hit my goal by June 1st. This year I hit my yearly goal by August 1st. Um, last year I hit the team goal by myself by October 1st and then they raised my goal 50 percent and I still hit it by August 1st.
Marker
Dan Hanson: I want to win and I do think sales is a competition, right? And it is a, it's a game and we got to win. But I can't. Reach as far as I can if I didn't have the [00:25:00] amazing boss that I do. And I think that goes true for teachers, for mentors. And for parents, I was able to reach as far as I can because of my parents.
They set me up for success in so many different ways. Not the least of which is education. You know, I got my MBA back in 2015 when I kind of pivoted and changed careers. You know, and I was able to do that. Because I already had my undergrad that they helped me with and obviously student loans and all that fun stuff, but it's just so key that I think, you know, for salespeople, young salespeople, especially, you know, listening to the podcast, just find the manager that that allows you to be who you are, but also coaches you and teaches you in the right way.
Leighann Lovely: And that's, and I just want to make a comment to what you just said, that coaches you and mentors you in the right way, which is, is. Has been a rarity in so many, so many situations that there are, there are managers out there, sales managers out there who [00:26:00] have never been sales people. And here's the strange thing is that when you, if you have a great sales person and then you put them in a management role, Often they struggle because they are true through and through sales people.
 But if you have somebody who understands sales and let me tell you, my, my father was a, mediocre sales guy, but he was a amazing sales manager. Just like that is when he rose up and because he understood how to sell. But he was a strategic thinker and liked to put all the pieces together and support people versus going out and selling himself.
 It's a hard, it's a hard thing to do when you're, when you're young, moving into a sales position, ask questions. It is okay to [00:27:00] ask, and if you're asking questions and getting pushback, you're in the wrong place. If you're asking questions and you're getting a leader who is engaged with you and coaching you and teaching you, you're in the right spot.
And Matrix, yes. They exist. They exist so that we are able to gamify it, make it about beating yourself, not the company, not, you know, if you make it about winning against yourself. It is way more fun because we have to figure out how to track a salesperson and everybody's like, Oh, I've got a, I have these matrix that my company's holding me.
I have to make so many phone calls. You know what? Yeah. In the beginning, that's what it's going to be about. But once you start hitting every one of your goals, your manager is going to stop looking at those. They're not gonna care. They're gonna go. Okay. Okay. Wow. Um, you're you're [00:28:00] meeting all your go They will stop looking at those numbers and they're literally gonna go.
Okay, you know what you can do whatever you want I'm here to support you in any way I can and that manager will start just removing roadblocks if they're a good manager That's what they'll do. They'll sit back and go Dan you go and do your job You call me if there's something that's in your way If you have a problem, you call me and I will make sure to remove that obstacle for you.
If they have the power to do it, there are certain industries where there's roadblocks and there's red tape for reasons to regulate and blah, blah, blah. But the greatest sales managers sit back and wait for their salespeople. Well, not all the time they check into, but for their salespeople to call them and go, Hey boss, man, I got a, I got an issue.
And that's when that manager goes, let me figure out how to fix it for you. Quick and now so that your job is as easy as it possibly can be to sell and make money for the [00:29:00] company.
Dan Hanson: Mm hmm.
 
Dan Hanson: Yeah, you said something that I say all the time and I've seen it so often that the best salespeople are automatically promoted to sales leaders or managers and that is so deserving, you know, oftentimes it's expected, you know, you earn this and that's what we should do.
 But the best salespeople oftentimes can't teach what they do. Correct? And then,
Marker
Dan Hanson: 1 of the things I really wanted to talk about is, you know, for young people, maybe tuning in getting into sales and why, for me, it was. You know, I love talking to people and I love meeting new people and making relationships.
That's really what, you know, kind of turns my butter. I also realized early on I didn't have any hard skills coming out of undergrad. I wasn't an engineer. I wasn't an architect. I wasn't in the content getting my CPA. I call those kind of hard skills. Those are things you go specifically to school for. I had people skills, which is again, something you can't teach.
So I knew that very early on if it was something I was passionate about, and the [00:30:00] coaching and the training was adequate, if not excellent, that I could be successful because I have my own internal barometer. Nobody's going to be harder on me than me. Right, I'm going to, you know, if they tell me to make 10 phone calls, I'm making 20 all the things right that that's an internal engine that, you know, again, just just you have or you don't.
So, I think, you know, for people coming out of school, not knowing. What to do if you've got people skills, if you're not afraid to meet people, to make phone calls, um, you know, if you're not afraid to learn, especially it is such a great career and it can spurn you into so many different directions. Right.
I've run businesses before, you know, I've been in charge of P and L's, you know, north of 3 million in revenue. You know, I, like I said, I got me MBA back in 2015. So I understood finance. You know, and so I think banking was an easy transition for me, but I started in sales, you know, and I've, you know, straight sales, product sales, whatever, you know, service sales.
Marker
Dan Hanson: So for me, it's about also knowing that you can reinvent yourself, you know, so many times. Uh, usually [00:31:00] every year I go and speak at a middle school and I say that exact same thing. I think one of the worst things we do is ask kids, you know, when they're 17 years old to try to pick. What they want to do with the rest of their life, right?
Just, you know, try it. Uh, there's a book called ready, aim, fire. Or ready, fire, aim, excuse me, where, you know, have a bias for action and try things. And then figure out what you liked, what you didn't like, and then kind of refocus and recalibrate. And I think that's so key for young people and especially young salespeople.
You can reinvent yourself so many times.
Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. What I wanted to be when I was 17 versus what I am today, I mean, I wanted to go, I wanted to be a police officer.
Dan Hanson: I can see that.
Leighann Lovely: I mean, very not at all, like not even close to what I was originally planning. And then I was going to be a computer programmer. Then I was going to be an accountant. No, it was an accountant, then a computer programmer. Then I went to school for business emphasis in human resource management. And now [00:32:00] I run a sales company.
Like how many careers can one person have in their lifetime? And in the reality of it, that's not really. Abnormal.
Dan Hanson: No, I think it's the norm.
Leighann Lovely: It is the norm at this point. I mean, I'm a, I'm a highly educated woman that just didn't have a straight path to where I'm at, but I do not regret a moment of the path I took because it's brought me to where I am.
And, every moment of my path, I learned something simple as that.
Dan Hanson: Absolutely.
Leighann Lovely: So I'm, hey, I'm, I'm glad I'm not a police officer.
Dan Hanson: I think we all are.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah.
 
Dan Hanson: I don't know. I certainly know. I didn't sit back when I was 17 and think, well, I want to be a commercial banker someday. That was not the sexy dream I had.
Marker
Dan Hanson: I'll tell you this. I've never been happier in my professional life than I am right now. And that's been for the last few years. Number 1, the job that I [00:33:00] do in helping business owners. Number 2, my boss, who's incredible, as I mentioned, and number 3, working for an organization that I do that, you know, really means what they say.
I've worked for big, you know, financial institutions. Uh, and the message is lost, but, you know, being with a smaller institution than I am with today, it is a stark contrast, and it's such a fresh, amazing outlook. And I couldn't be happier. And I think that shows when I'm working with clients, right? When I'm more than happy to, to engage with them and bring them in and understand that they're going to get the service that I think is what they should get.
So anyway, super happy.
Leighann Lovely: Well, this leads into us wrapping up where you get your 30 second shameless pitch. So please.
Dan Hanson: Yes, she's a, you know, I should like to talk about myself more given my profession. Ultimately, I just want to be what Ben said, the guy that knows the guy. But with respect to what I do on a daily basis, know that I'm going to get in and understand everything about your credit request so that I'm the best advocate that I [00:34:00] can be for you.
 Not only am I going to, you know, work on the actual. Uh, request itself. I'm going to try to understand your industry, what you're paying points are, you know, what, what's the trends, what's the future outlook? I have, you know, countless, tools at my, uh, disposal that I can, you know, kind of look at to understand where the industry is headed.
And primarily real estate is the easiest thing that people can understand. And so I love working on real estate transactions. I work with a lot of investor groups. That, you know, have multiple projects that we work on together, because ultimately I'm not transactional. Right? I do want to have repeat customers and work on different things.
And for instance, tonight, I'm going out with 2 clients. They invited my wife and I out to dinner. You know, there were, we just closed on a property a couple of months ago, and they're bringing their wives and we're all getting together. Right? They become friends. So, I hate to say that I'm a generalist, but, you know, as my bio pointed out, I can do everything.
You know, if you're a business owner and you want to buy, uh, you know, a [00:35:00] giant piece of equipment for your manufacturer, I can do that. I can get you, you know, vehicle. Uh, I can do he locks or B lock, excuse me, and lines of credit, you know, the real estate, obviously, and the SBA side allows me. To work with acquisitions, you know, I've done franchise acquisitions.
 I've, you know, what, what, what's unique about the 8 together is that it allows you to do a real estate transaction with what we call blue sky or kind of, you know, that uncollateralized, you know, business startup costs. So it's been, uh, it's been amazing. I'm super happy what I do. I have a huge engine and passion for learning, learning.
 I have a personal motto. You know, that, um, that I will always stand by is that, I'm constantly learning, to just brought in my, my reach and what I can understand. So ultimately I just want to be the best partner I can be.
Leighann Lovely: If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?
Dan Hanson: Yeah, so my email is pretty easy. It's D. Hanson at Kohler. C u [00:36:00] dot com, which is the letter D. Hanson is H. A. N. S. O. N. At Kohler. K. O. H. L. E. R. The letter C. The letter you dot com. I do also give out my personal cell, which some people might think is strange, but it's the best way to get a hold of me. Text and Email and calls are fine.
It's 414 526 3565.
Leighann Lovely: Amazing. And those will be in the show notes. And Dan, I really appreciate you coming on today. This has been an awesome conversation.
Dan Hanson: Yeah, it shouldn't have taken us this long because I'm a huge fan of yours and you know, we go back years and I'm really a big fan of what you guys are doing.
So thanks for having me on.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah.
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Elevate Your Brand: Sales Strategies for Success

Love Your Sales Podcast welcomes Ryan Chute, the Wizard of Ads, to discuss the critical elements of sales and marketing success. Leighann and Ryan dive into the concepts of brand culture, the importance of simplicity, and how to create authentic connections with customers. Ryan shares insights on how companies can stand out by aligning their internal cultures with their external branding and marketing efforts. The conversation highlights the significance of being "sales ready" and the impact of a unified, consistent presence across all channels. Tune in to learn how to make your sales process effortless and elevate your business to new heights.
Contact Ryan Chute
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wizardryanchute/
Website - linktr.ee/ryanchute
Email - ryanchute@wizardofads.com
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com
 
Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
 
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
 
Ready to grow your business? Schedule a call with us today  - https://api.leadconnectorhq.com/widget/bookings/discoverysalesleighann
 Channel Subscribe link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-O7W9DzaRv4waodQKCprIg?sub_confirmation=1
 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am so excited today.
I am joined by Ryan Chute, the wizard of ads, a visionary in entrepreneurship. Welcome Ryan. Thank you so much. How are you? I'm doing well. Thank you for asking. So, Ryan, why don't you, you know, ex kind of expand a little bit on, um, what the Wizard of Ads is.
Ryan Chute: I'm a, I'm a partner within the [00:02:00] Wizard of Ads that, basically helps businesses, uh, build their brands and take them from, unknown names or, or name recognition through to.
Being, becoming a household name. And really what we're trying to do is elevate the, the brand presence within a Particular company, but equally as much try to elevate the inside of the business to be able to deliver on those brand promises.
Leighann Lovely: What does that mean?
Ryan Chute: Well, it all boils down to a thing that I learned back in 2015, from my partner, Ray Segrin, uh, who's also a wizard of ads partner.
And he, said, look, there's, there's three big buckets here. There's the brand, there's the culture, and then there's the experience. And. Your brand is a representation of your culture and your experiences. Your culture is all of the things that your employees experience in your business, from your salespeople to your CSRs, to your, uh, your, HR department or your accounting team straight through to the buying experience.
Now, [00:03:00] when we care for those people at the right level in our culture, the buying experience is going to be elevated because they're the ones actually doing all the work. Right. And those buying experiences and those buyer experiences and those employee experiences are the things that we are able to represent in the brand through our advertising, our websites, our policies, and all of the things that bring it all together.
So in short, your brand really is your culture and your culture really is your brand. And that's what's going to deliver the buying experience.
Leighann Lovely: I love that. I, I absolutely, and I don't think that we put enough emphasis, um, on, you know, we, we, as businesses are constantly talking about, oh, how do we look from the outside?
But if we're not focusing on how we act. on the inside, how we are on the inside, how it won't translate no matter how hard we try, you know, [00:04:00] from the outside view, right? If we're not teaching that, if we're not constantly making sure that we're looking at that. And, and I remember somebody, I asked somebody one day, I said, well, how do you, how do you create a culture?
And they're like, well, As you grow, no matter what that culture will exist, no matter what it create, it starts to create itself. If you are not 100 percent diligent on staying on top of that, you will have a culture that exists. No matter what, so you have to make sure that you are like actively making sure that that's a positive, happy, good feeling or experience is being created.
Ryan Chute: I think, think of it like a, like a Petri dish, right? There's three different, uh, there's three different terms for culture, you know, and, and if we were just to take the biological [00:05:00] chemical. You know, version of that for a moment. And we had a little Petri dish and we threw in a bunch of, you know, positive little biomes and, organisms and whatnot, we're going to have a healthy little Petri dish full of things.
But if we throw in a whole bunch of negative things and bad things that we're going to get mold and darkness and, gloom and, poison, and it's no different in your culture, right? When we start to recognize and relate the true laws of. The universe, be it the chemical or biological or physics of the universe.
What we realize is that the same thing happens in our business and your friend is right that, no matter what, there's a culture there. The question is, are you steering that culture or are you a victim of that culture? It's also important to recognize that you don't just have one culture in your business.
You have neighborhoods in your business. You have many cultures in your business. Your CSR is all kind of come together in a click your, your, uh, install department, [00:06:00] your retail sales floor department, your, different groups of, birds of a feather flock together and, and tend to have a perspective.
Of us against them. A lot of the times, if you don't find ways to bridge those gaps and, and create a holistic solution that makes everyone feel a part of the team and able to communicate in a healthy ways.
Leighann Lovely: That's so interesting. Like, I, I love I'm such a nerd because this gets, this really gets back into, you know, a podcast that I had.
Years ago, which is the HR, you know, aspect of things, but, and we forget that, we forget that this piece of it directly correlates with the way that the individuals in your organization represent your company from the outside world. So if you, if you're sitting, if one of your salespeople, your CSRs, one of your [00:07:00] anybody at that company is sitting in earshot of somebody who is considering buying or is even in the market for a product that you have and you are disgruntled and you are talking negative, Oh God, you're working at this company, that person is not going to become your client.
Ryan Chute: That's right.
Leighann Lovely: But if that person is talking about how great it is to work at that company, all of the sudden that person who needs plumbing services and I refer to plumbing constantly, I don't know why, but, um, cause I, I always have a plumbing job at my house,
 
Leighann Lovely: That person all of the sudden may pull up their phone and go, Oh, what company is this?
And look it up.
Ryan Chute: Right.
Leighann Lovely: And that person then may become a client.
Ryan Chute: Well, and if we were to just extrapolate exactly that, Leanne, to, instead of it just being the person who's sitting next to you in the restaurant, to that exact same kind of thing happening on the [00:08:00] radio, where 50 percent of the population of any city in America can hear your ad and that ad sounds not so much like an ad, but a glimpse into what you stand for and what you stand against in your business and how you represent that, be it Funny or endearing or maybe even sad or frustrating and exacerbating that pain and then resolving that pain in a in a 30 or 60 second ad that has a person going, Huh?
I mean, I don't need plumbing right now. I mean, Leanne always needs plumbing, but I don't need plumbing right now. But when I do need plumbing, if I had to choose between a random faceless group of people on Facebook or, Google search, or, uh, you know, looking at the Google map pack or the LSA local service ads and going, I guess I could just pick one of these random people like a roulette table, or I could pick the one that I.
Kind of already have a feeling [00:09:00] about, and then the feelings kind of good. And when you, when you are known, liked, and trusted before they need your thing, you're winning the game before the game plays is even started.
Leighann Lovely: That's yes, that's what, yeah, yes, you are. And, I constantly. You know, the no like and trust is a constant conversation that comes up.
 Obviously on, you know, this is a sales podcast. We constantly talk about the no like and trust factor and when people feel when you invoke a feeling negative, positive. Like you said, you know, if it's when it's a feeling people remember
Ryan Chute: no matter what you say, but everyone will remember how you made them feel
Leighann Lovely: right?
And if you make them feel like they've connected with you in some way in a positive way. [00:10:00] You've just triggered something in them that will go, Oh, I remember. And that's how you've gotten them to look you up when they do have a, you know, a need for whatever service.
Ryan Chute: It's going to be one of two. It's they're either going to look you up direct.
 Because you've, been around long enough doing your branding that people go, Oh, I know those, that name, right? We're past name recognition. Name recognition means I know your name, but I just don't care. Being a household name is. I care about your brand and you're my chosen brand of choice.
This extrapolates into the sales process. It extrapolates into the, into the buying process. All of this starts to interconnect. Heck this is true when you're trying to find a mate, uh, when you're trying to connect with your child, when you're, uh, connecting with other people in other communities with that, that you are a part of, be it your church or your community center or whatever.
 All communication is all communication and [00:11:00] people really like to make it complicated and, um, while it is complicated, there's first principles that we can trust on that, that we can rely on first and, and lean into. So know, like, and trust is super important. Do you want to make your sales job easier?
Have them know, like, and trust you before they come to you. Uh, have you step into their house, you step into their house, or they step into your retail shop, or they call you on the phone for their insurance or, legal services, your average ticket's going to go up, your conversion is going to probably happen first or second sit, it's going to, it's going to happen faster, and your profitability is going to go up, and our measures show that it's somewhere between 30 and 100 percent depending on the product in the market, and that's a lot of money.
Right. And that's how you grow your business. But that's how you make it easier for your salespeople to sell as leaders. We have a responsibility to serve our salespeople at a higher level than we traditionally serve them.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. So let's talk a little bit more [00:12:00] about how you engage your clients to assist them with doing this.
 You had mentioned that you work with some, you know, some of the trades and some of the Yeah. So let's, let's talk about, you know, not only the cultural piece, but where do you know if, if I were to come to you and say, Hey, Ryan, you know, I, I'd like to hire you to, to assist me. Where do you, yeah, where do you start?
Ryan Chute: Well, you know. It all starts right with our core service at Wizard of ads. We write advertising that stands out, stands 600 feet above the crowd. We have national buying power, so we're able to buy basically mass media like TV, radio billboards at about 27 cents on the dollar. So we pay for ourselves basically a four times return basically day one.
Which, which means two things. One, we can't serve as everyone. So we handpick the people that we want to work with and, and look for the people who are aggressively looking to grow their businesses four times to 10 times their [00:13:00] business out of the gate. And some cases, thousands of times of growth, depending on where they are and what the opportunity is.
So first thing first is we're looking for right people with the right disposition and, and, and looking to care for their people at the right level, both as a customer, as an employee. When we see good operators. Operators that are looking to efficiently deliver, um, the solutions that they provide, then we're going to go to work telling their story.
So it really comes all from the marketing aspect. We're going to figure out that that's the conduit in for everyone. Everyone's struggling with their marketing right now. Everyone's paying 30 percent more for their Google ads. Uh, these days, everyone's Facebook isn't working the way it was working before.
 Those are channels, right? Those aren't actual marketing. Those are just, um, tactics within marketing, right? Marketing is all of the things, branding, sales, activation, policy, how we answer the phone, the words [00:14:00] that we use to name our business, the colors we choose, the shapes that we choose, uh, all of these things have to do with marketing.
And we look at it in a very holistic way because we're not associated or attached to any channel where we're what like I like to call media agnostic, we were not fussed about the channel. In fact, the channel is the last thing we need to worry about. The first thing that we need to do is go. What are you trying to achieve?
Are you trying to? Or X, your business, are you trying to, stand out in a, in a marketplace that has a similar named or similar, uh, services as you, or, or products as you, and once we figure out what the. The goal is then we can reverse engineer strategically how we're going to stand 600 feet above that goal and the competition within that goal.
Once we do that, all of that is going to inform exactly what the creative is going to be. And all of that creative is going to [00:15:00] inform how we're best going to be able to deliver it most efficiently on the different channels. So as you see, the channels end up being the last one. And let's not forget that channels include salespeople, CSRs, trucks, storefronts, uh, Phone numbers, websites, all of those are channels and we have to be, ready to, to align all of those channels to speak and feel the same way so that it doesn't get weird along the way as, as people are investigating it.
Right.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. You know, and it's, it's funny that you say all of those channels cause you know the way that I explain this to people, cause again, you know, we work in very similar ways. Right. Very, very similar roles or what we do for people is, you know, and when a client comes to me and says, you know, we need help in our sales and marketing front.
And one of the first things that I always do, especially when they come in, they say, we want you to, you know, do appointment setting. The first thing [00:16:00] that. Anybody does Ryan first thing, right? As we go on social media and say, okay, what does this company look like? What do you as a salesperson look like?
And there has been plenty of times that I've had to go back and say, you're really not sales ready. And that's, and I just said it one day to a client and she goes, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, you know, your LinkedIn says X, Y, Z. Your Facebook, which is also tied to your business and you advertise, you know, that's, yeah, I can see it on your website where you have that link says that you're still working at this company, you know, then you have this, that doesn't have a link that goes anywhere.
It's just a dead end. I'm like, you, you just, you're not sales ready. Like I could go out and set appointments for you, but if people are looking you up all of your social, it's not swimming in the same direction. It looks, it's broken. And she's like, Oh, Oh, I didn't, I didn't even realize. And I'm like, it's important.
And people go, [00:17:00] Oh, come on. It's not that, you know, they can find me on LinkedIn and I'm like, yeah, they can. But if they're not a LinkedIn person, they're going to go to Facebook.
Ryan Chute: They're
Leighann Lovely: going to go to Tik TOK. They're going to go to Instagram. They're going to go to their preferred platform. And if you're not on it, that's okay.
It's better to not be on it than have that be broken. And they're like, uh, okay. And so I dropped that, like, you're not sales ready one day. And that's become now the, like, are you sales ready? And it's literally become the terminology that I use because it's really simple and dumbed down to people. They get it.
Are you sales? Right. And it's the exact same thing that you're saying, which is. It is better to shut down a platform than to have it and, and I'm sure you see this for me to go on to a platform and look and say, Oh, this is going to [00:18:00] their previous job. Oh, this phone number is dead. Oh, this email bounces because they're no longer at that company.
If you're a business owner or a salesperson, and I consider every salesperson, you're running your own little mini business. Like, even if you're working for a company, you represent that company and you need to brand yourself as the expert. And therefore, you're becoming like a little mini business.
That's how you're going to become the great. If you want to be a great salesperson,
Ryan Chute: salespeople, I've always 100 percent supported being a sales guy my whole life. We are entrepreneurs. We are risk, centric. We are, um, performance oriented and we are a business and have to think like entrepreneurs, not employees.
And, and that does mean. Getting those all, all those ducks lined up.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Yeah. And [00:19:00] so, I mean, people just don't understand how, how impactful your social can be positively or negatively. Same thing. I mean, we just, obviously, um, you know, this nation just went through the most crazy election ever with, you know, and I'm not going to get into, but people don't realize like, Oh, I'm going to go put my political views out on Facebook.
You very well may be alienating a large population of people. Now, if you want to.
Ryan Chute: About half every time. Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. Same with other topics. Now, if you're okay with that, that's absolutely fine. But understand the ramifications of doing that. And some people are like, well, I didn't understand. [00:20:00]
Ryan Chute: There is a consequence to, to everything.
And, and some people, uh, perceive themselves as, you know, That's the virtuous one that needs to, stand for something, but there's, there's time and place to stand for things. And there's, you know, I, I think that if we all just orient back to, first principles rather than the negotiables in life, right, political parties are negotiables, uh, religion has negotiables in it.
That's why there's many thousands of, of religions. And, there's, there's core things that are non negotiables.
Ryan Chute: In life, and if we just to orient to that and some of those non negotiables being kindness, empathy, confidence, duty of care, honor, you know, which is lost in this world right now, then we're going to have an awful lot more success because look, people don't follow people who aren't going anywhere.
And you can't go anywhere if you don't have a North star and a North star doesn't move. Right? So if, a person is trying to say, I stand for [00:21:00] something, you have to stand for it when it's inconvenient to you as much as you, you stand for it when it's convenient for you. And that's fundamentally the difference between beliefs and values.
When you believe something, you can believe the equally opposite thing to also be true. Right? So I believe, as an example, that, uh, freedom and responsibility are equally valuable things. And depending on which side of the table you sit on, that will matter more or less at any given time. I believe that justice and mercy are equally true, but if I'm the accused murderer, I want mercy.
And if I'm the victim's family, I want justice. But what happens? What happens? When the victim's family murders, the murderer now, what do they want? Right. Right. This is the difference between values [00:22:00] and beliefs. And when we, when we really start to self explore that as leaders and then stand for something in our businesses, even if we're just the salesperson, because there's no such thing as just a salesperson, that's a business.
Right. And when we do stand for that, people are attracted to that. They will follow that values. Are the true value that people see when you're trying to build value. So if you want to be valuable to people, stand for something when it's inconvenient for you.
Leighann Lovely: That was really eloquently put. Thank
Ryan Chute: you.
Leighann Lovely: I really liked the way that you explain that.
And, because you're right. You, that very, very well explained. And, and yes, it's. People need to, and I'm not saying that you have to put a stake in the ground, but people want authenticity. [00:23:00] They want somebody Who's going to show that value. They want somebody who's going to resignate with them. And, and they can't find that if you're not willing to give a little.
Ryan Chute: I like to call it the flinch. Right. When customers see you flinch, they know that you've done something that hurts a little. That's inconveniencing you a little bit. So what can we do to show the flinch?
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. And how do you work with your clients on
Ryan Chute: that? Everyone's custom. Everyone's in a unique situation with a unique set of skills that we have to figure out what matters to both the customer. And what the company is, is ready to stand for and ready to stand against and willing to do operationally, because this all costs [00:24:00] money and time and energy and they have to choose what they're going to do.
A lot of the companies that we start with, frankly, don't do anything special. We're making interesting by making them interesting. Our standout clients, the ones that are truly exceptional. They're all doing something that makes them exceptional. One of my clients, they have less than a hundred products in their price list.
But sell at the same volume as their competitors who have many thousands of items in their price list. They are so good and efficient and simplified at selling that they can absolutely obliterate their competition through their operational excellence, through the true efficiency, the elegance, the curation of their inventory, their products, their protections, their price, and their payments, that they're able to quickly deliver a solution that makes the customer go, Oh, yeah, it's just.
That one. I have [00:25:00] another client that is, uh, got eight locations across the Carolinas that's branded around the dad figure. And what does dad say when the kid calls up at three o'clock in the morning with whatever problem it is? I'm on my way. And that's our brand promise, and that's exactly what we promote in our marketing.
But that's also what they do operationally. They've set up their system, their operation, to be very efficient, but very efficient to do the one thing that we promise consistently. We don't need to talk about 24 hour service and always somebody. And we don't do on call for our plumbers, but like all, no, none of that stuff.
Like that's all just nonsense. Most of the time it's about saying less. But meaning it more
Leighann Lovely: right and having that true core value built in [00:26:00] and marketing that as, as being what they deliver. And that's, that's, you know, we get sometimes and as an entrepreneur myself and working with entrepreneurs, we're so close to what we do that we over complicate everything.
And sometimes the answer Is the simplest thing that's sitting literally on the tip of our nose, but because it's, we can't see it.
Ryan Chute: It's true. And look, Leonardo da Vinci said the, the ultimate sophistication is simplicity. And we see that, uh, hold true, hold true in, in products like apple, who, uh, Not everyone loves, but the majority of the planet loves.
And at the end of the day have far exceeded the expectations in Amazon's approach to ordering process and keeping it very easy to, make the final order, um, [00:27:00] to taking your price book down from thousands of items to under a hundred items, all of these things are what get out of the way of growth and scale,
Leighann Lovely: right?
Right. Simplicity. People, we, we live in a, um, in a instant gratification world and Sometimes the extra details that we think everybody wants the, Oh, here's, you know, here's a complete list of our catalog. That's got the 1000 products. Really? You know what? Sometimes I just want to go on there and be given 2 options.
This 1 or this 1. Yep, I like that one. And I've learned this as being a mom. It's funny, when you become a parent, you learn really quickly. Don't give a four year old or a six year old or even a ten year old a [00:28:00] ton of options. You give them two. A banana or an apple and they go a banana. Okay. But if you give them banana, apple, strawberries, blueberries, they'll sit there and stare at you and go, I don't know.
And it's like, really? Like what? I don't get it. What do you want? And they're, I don't know. But all of a sudden, if you go banana, apple, uh, banana. Great. Like simple. And you give them the option because then they feel like they're getting to choose. And so you eliminate the, I didn't want that. Okay.
Well, I gave you the option now. Okay. Now you chose it. But if you give too many, well, then they're like star struck. And again, these are the, like, these are simple things in life that translate directly into what we as human beings need. Like it's just at our core, this goes back to.
Ryan Chute: Whether you're four years old [00:29:00] or 40 years old, frankly.
The 40 year old person really just wants to say, Hey, do I get the blue car or the red car? That's, that's all I need to know. Like, like the blue one, please. Yeah,
Leighann Lovely: correct. Like, is this keyless entry or is this, like, I, I don't, When it gets too complex, and this is why I don't like dealing with the government, right?
This is why I don't have to, this is why I hire an accountant for all of the complex things. This is why we have doctors and, you know, to, to fix us. So this is why we have people who go to school for the really hard stuff, because we don't want to deal with it.
Ryan Chute: There's a, uh, there's a, there's a concept in physics called the third gravitating body.
When you have two gravitating bodies that tug on each other, like the Earth and the Moon. The, the predictable path is, is pretty straightforward. You can calculate that with, with a fair amount of ease. When you introduce a third, uh, gravitating body like a [00:30:00] comet, the predictability of that comet is incredibly difficult to calculate, mathematically speaking.
Now there's, there's two roads that we can walk down with that. One is how it tugs on us, uh, emotionally, but it also applies to The variability of options when I start giving you so many choices that the 4th and 5th and 6th option could end up breaking the 1st and 2nd place, I start to lose confidence as a consumer that this is the best choice.
So creating and curating your inventory and your pricing is absolutely crucial to serve your salespeople at the highest level. And as salespeople, the most successful people are the ones who do. Distill it down into a. A journey up, a progressive, uh, set of buckets. I, like to call it the, uh, four great walks in home services.
Now in New Zealand, there's the nine great walks in New Zealand, and there's just these beautiful things where [00:31:00] you start off the day at the base camp and you, you walk all through these beautiful areas and you get up to this gorgeous, stunning Vista and you see the magical big thing that you're going to see.
And then on the way back, it's just as beautiful and just as stunning and just as an, beautiful wonderful of experience down to the very place that you started at the base camp. Well, what I do with that is the exact same thing in home services when I'm looking at, um, five different HVAC systems.
I'm gonna start off with the most simplest of systems and I'm gonna walk them up through progressively more complicated systems into the best system. The, Lamborghini of systems, right? Not because I'm expecting them to buy anything, but they deserve to know that they're free to buy a Lamborghini of systems.
As a consumer, whether they choose to buy a Lamborghini or not, right? And then walk them back down. Now, I walk them up in the product and protection of those systems. And then I walk them down in the price and the payment of those [00:32:00] systems. So I start small and I end small. So I'm empathetic in the way that I'm approaching it, but I'm also making it astoundingly simple for them to see all the important things along the way and choose what their favorite Vista was along the way, option one through option five.
When you make it that easy for the customer to go, I like option three, the most. For whatever the reasons are service, uh, dependability, economy, performance, appearance, whatever. It doesn't matter. What matters is what matters to the customer and that's the platinum rule. It's not the golden rule anymore.
The golden rule is do unto others as we want to be done unto. The platinum rule is do unto others as others want to be done unto.
Leighann Lovely: Interesting.
Ryan Chute: Right?
Leighann Lovely: Yeah.
Ryan Chute: And at least half the planet doesn't want to be treated like an extrovert. Pfft. Because they're introverts, right?
Leighann Lovely: And
Ryan Chute: it goes on and on and on. But those are the things that we can cut through all of the clutter of trying to solve the [00:33:00] six things that they care about in a product and just let them choose what's important by showing them an obvious set of solutions.
Leighann Lovely: Very interesting. And yes, that is absolutely what it Comes down to, and I have lost deals because I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to show them some of the add on services. And then they get so overwhelmed with, wait, wait, wait. Um, do I, I don't, I don't think I need any of this. And then it's okay.
We're going to review this. And then I'm going, okay. But you know, you said you were ready to move forward and like, yeah, but there's so much other stuff that I want to look at. And it's like, Oh crap. Like, that's right. You just, you just lost them because you're trying to upsell when in an inappropriate time.
They don't, they don't need it.
Ryan Chute: That's the magic right there, Leanne, is, exactly that. I call it tantric selling. I just waited for you to drink to say that, [00:34:00] see if I get a spit take, uh, tantric selling is the notion of delaying your gratification, your dopaministic urge to get the big whopper home run sale every time out of the gate to sell the priority purchase, sell the thing they need, get them to say yes, get it over the curb and then go back.
To get the rest of the sale, wherever the rest of that sale might make sense based on serving the customer at the highest level, not you, the customer. You should never be selling anything that you, the customer doesn't need. That's unethical. But for example, in air conditioning, if you were to look at a whole air conditioning system, you've got the, uh, all of the bits and pieces.
You can sell it in different configurations. I'm not going to get all complicated here. If we bought the air conditioner and they chose option three. Great. Job is done. Now the install is going on and the old air conditioner has just been [00:35:00] ripped out and the new air conditioner is being put in. The box is kind of just making its way into place.
Well, that's a great time for somebody to come in and look at the ductwork and the air handlers. And how, what's going on. The air cleaning, the air quality, uh, elements, how frequently the person changes their filter could factor into this and, and solving their problem with a superior filter, be it electrostatic or a, or a larger size filter, they could be looking at, um, heck, maybe even a, a, a duct cleaning because the, the old ducts are really quite dirty and we don't want all that dirt going into this brand new system.
And, and finishing the sale. Now we can do this incredibly ethically because now's the time to do it because we can lump it all into the financing right now and just make it infinitely more convenient for the customer. One of the things that we don't pay attention to very often when we're selling the old systems, which were often gas based into these new heat pump systems that the government is, [00:36:00] Putting rebates on and encouraging people to do requires new electric panels.
Well, we should be considering those. If we're in California, we should also be considering whole home generation because the grid is so archaic that there is a dramatic chance of you having your life support system, which is your air conditioner, go down because of your Of your electrical system, which is your life support systems like support system, because it's, it's no longer a luxury to have air conditioning and heating.
It's, it's absolutely a thing that people die from. I've been in offices listening to people who have said their wives just died. It's a real thing and it matters to me to represent ourselves in this industry. Certainly home services as essential service providers. Plumbers have saved more lives than any doctor will ever save in the history of saving lives.
Plumbers water, because if your water is not good, right? [00:37:00] You die.
Leighann Lovely: Correct. Right. If you're not, if you're drinking poisoned water
Ryan Chute: bad in so many different ways, you know, that's Flint, Michigan, perfect example of a most recent time for Americans, you know, but people overseas who are dealing with this and all of the disease that comes from that every single day, you know, so it's a big deal.
 Enough that we need to recognize what matters in this world is home services, which is why I really enjoy them the most. Now, our organization, wizard of ads, we, we serve as all kinds of different companies, retailers and professional services and all those things. But, um, my energy tends to focus on service based businesses that are providing services.
Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: So I'm going to wind down because we're coming to time. This conversation has just been so unbelievably amazing at your, a wealth of, of knowledge. But before we do, I want to give [00:38:00] you your 32nd shameless pitch. So Ryan, There you go, your 30 second shameless pitch.
Ryan Chute: You know, we're really just here to help people.
We start with the marketing. We focus on that. If you have a company that's looking to four to 10 X growth, we can come out of the gate saving you a heap of money, but also create an environment where you do become the household name where people actually care about you and you win the game before the game has even begun.
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. And if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how do they go about doing that?
Ryan Chute: Three, three simplest conduits for me are on all socials. I'm wizard Ryan shoots. You can find me pretty much on any, on any platform under that handle. My, services based, marketing side of the business is wizard of ads dot services.
That's the URL. And uh, my personal page is Ryan shoot. com and you can, you can find me at any one of those spots and interact with me and talk with me. Look into my brain with all of our blog posts and all the other weird stuff that we [00:39:00] put out there in the universe.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And I will put those on the show notes.
So if you are looking to reach out to Ryan, you will be able to find those right on the show notes. Thank you, Ryan, again, so much for joining me today. This has been an awesome conversation.
Ryan Chute: That's a treat. Thank you so much. I'm really grateful.

Designing Homes: Safety, Security, and Style

In this episode of "Love Your Sales," host Leighann Lovely interviews Angela Lingle, the owner of Design Go Lighting. Angela shares her journey of starting her outdoor lighting business and discusses the passion and expertise she brings to transforming outdoor spaces into beautifully illuminated environments. They explore the importance of strategic partnerships with other small businesses, the benefits of outdoor lighting for both security and aesthetics, and practical advice for entrepreneurs looking to follow a similar path. Angela also highlights her approach to personalized lighting designs and offers insights into how she collaborates with clients to enhance their property's appeal. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to reach out to Angela for their outdoor lighting needs and information on how to get in touch.
Contract Angela –
Website – www.designgolighting.com
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Email – angela@designgolighting.com
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com
 
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Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am really excited today because I am joined by Angela Lingle, the lighting lady. She is the owner of Design Go Lighting with 15 years of outdoor lighting experience. You have lit everything from a flagpole to a tree. An entire village, bringing everything to what illumination I suppose would be the right word, but design go lighting is, out an outdoor lighting [00:02:00] company that offers truly personalized experiences that cater to, all levels of involvement.
And I'm really excited to talk to you about this today, Angela. So welcome to the show.
Angela Lingle : Thank you so much, Leanne. I really appreciate the opportunity to share information today.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. So, well, why don't we start first, you know, when I hear outdoor lighting, I think, oh, let's throw a couple of, you know, lights on my house and, you know, that I can see when I drive, you know, home.
 but you, bring outdoor lighting to a whole new adventure and experience. Um, and I'm really excited for people to kind of, you know, check out your website and, and some of your posts on LinkedIn, but explain the difference between just throwing a couple of outdoor lights and what you do.
Angela Lingle : You
Leighann Lovely: know, that is
Angela Lingle : such an excellent question.
Angela Lingle: What I do as a lighting designer is try to put together the most beautiful [00:03:00] with the fewest number of fixtures. I think we've all driven past that property where it's just lit up and it's, it's too much. We've also driven past that property where it is almost depressing at night because there's so much beauty in the architecture but it, has just the fixtures on the outside of the house and One is warm and one is cool, and, and it just doesn't present well.
Mm-hmm . So when you have an opportunity to work with me or an outdoor lighting designer, uh, what we do is we look at. The architecture of the home or the business, the beauty in the nature around us, meaning trees and things like that, the outdoor living space that they have, what do they see when they look out of their windows, you know, and how can we bring that, um, enjoyment to that space into the evening hours.
[00:04:00] And then finally, what. Security and safety concerns are there. Are there stairs? Are there dark spots in a wonderful neighborhood, but there's been a little bit of crime? You know, what can we do to make that home so much fun to come home to each night? But then also, what is the purpose behind each fixture and how do we bring that all together?
 So it looks absolutely beautiful as you go by, as you come home. But again, with the fewest number of fixtures, each one Uh, having a purpose and whether it be an up or a down light or a path light, what do we need in each situation to make it unique? So it doesn't look like somebody just rubber stamped some up lights on the house.
You know, how can we make it? Much more, welcoming and more thought out, [00:05:00] uh, I guess that's a long answer, but no, but that you, it's clear that you have passion for what you do because just in the way that you explain all of that, which, you know, for me, the mundane person, when it comes to lighting, you know, first of all, when you drive up to my house, it's, it's a nightmare.
Leighann Lovely: It's dark. It's, um, the first thing I do is I push my door. My, button for my garage door because you can't see my house. It's dark, it's dreary. It's, and that's, that's actually my entire neighborhood right now. You know, we don't have a lot of lights and you don't, I guess you don't think about the safety.
You don't think about it for all of the, but the beauty of it, the, to be able to see a house lit up, to be able to have a clear path for guests who are just walking up and right now during this time of the year, wow, wouldn't it be so much nicer to actually have proper lighting where I can [00:06:00] see where I'm walking when I'm taking the dog out.
You know, outside to do his business. You know, and you, we do so many other things in our house to create environment, but we forget that there's other pieces that we can do to create that ambience that we want so that when we're having a party, we can flip on some really cool lights that. Cater to that.
Angela Lingle : Yeah, I just had an appointment last night in Heartland and one of the things that I offer is an outdoor lighting demo, so I can show you exactly what it would look like at night, uh, before you make any decisions or as you make the decisions. But it is exactly as you described,
Marker
Angela Lingle : it is on a country road.
completely dark. And so unless they remember to turn their lights on, for their kids when they come home and things like that, uh, [00:07:00] it is a little bit scary. And she described they have a detached garage because it's an old farmhouse. And her daughter came home and called her and said, Can you turn on the lights?
Because she didn't want to walk from the detached garage to the house in the complete darkness. So we met last night. You know, the ground is getting ready to freeze, so we're limited on what we can do yet this year. But we put together a simple plan. It's five uplights on the house and then one downlight on their stairs because.
it safety. They have grandmother who will be c and it's always been a st have always been a strugg how the conversation star but then to just add
Beautiful. They can add to trees and things like that in the [00:08:00] spring. But right now for their immediate need every night at dusk, their house is going to be illuminated with the soft down like going on those stairs and it's going to stay on until dawn and it's going to go on every day automatically without any thought.
It's going to factor in daylight savings time. It's just beautiful. See,
Leighann Lovely: this, it's, these are the brilliant things that, you know, these busy, busy people, I was going to say business people, but it's not, that's not just related to just busy people. Like, I can't remember to flip on the lights before I leave when it's when it's light out, because I'm not thinking about, Oh, I'm, I'm leaving when it's light out, but we're coming home when it's dark.
Yeah.
Angela Lingle : You know, and just along those lines, I really pride myself in being a lighting Resource as well as a lighting designer. [00:09:00] So in that situation, and I just shared this with my favorite networking group. I recommend GE makes an amazing dusk until dawn bulb that you can buy on Amazon, that you just put it in the fixtures on the outside of your house.
And it will go on every night at dusk. It'll go off at dawn. Make sure you get the warm white because that's. The pleasing color. But it's a wonderful place to start. I know as an outdoor lighting designer, uh, sometimes, and then any up uplighting that we add to your, to your home is gonna match that same color usually.
Right. Or I can work really hard to make that work, but a lot of times we're in a tricky situation where we can't get wire. right by the front door. And so that's how I discovered these bulbs. But so we can bring that those fixtures on the outside of the home into the outdoor lighting plan and have everything work together.
You [00:10:00] know, it's just a wonderful place to start. You should negotiate a contract with GE for selling their bulbs here. Seriously, I've shared their link so many times and people have taken so many pictures of my bulb. I should, I should have. You can't take the sales
Leighann Lovely: out of the sales lady, right? Yeah. The sales out of the, I'm sorry, the lighting lady.
So let's talk about your entrepreneurial journey a little bit. You know, it's, it's never a straight line, but I'd love to learn a little bit about what drove you, you know, your, you had the launch of your business not too long ago, which is amazing. Congratulations. That's Awesome. Um, you know, let's what, what was the pivotal moment when you said, I'm going to, I'm going to do this on my own.
I'm going to open up my own business.
Angela Lingle : Well, you know, it's, it has been, you know, a journey [00:11:00] and it started well over 15 years ago, uh, with a beautiful outdoor installation at my home. And it was like. I became obsessed and I was like, well, what if we added like something in the trees and, and I could not stop and I just dove in And, it's so much fun to have my own business.
That is actually also my passion. Do you know what I mean? Like, I will do demos. all day long or all night long, I should say, where some outdoor lighting, um, designers will stay away from it because it is labor intensive. It does take up your time. I like absolutely enjoy it. I love showing people the options and having my vision come to life, in front of their eyes as they're.
Putting together their, their [00:12:00] lighting plan. Right. But fast forward to, you know, how did I find myself in this situation today? You know, you have highs and lows and everything. And last year about this time, actually it was this, a year ago today, uh, my husband had some health concerns and it ended up being.
serious. The good news is that's all behind us and he's 100%. Uh, with that though, I had to take a pause and I took what turned out to be six months off just to make sure that I was there for my family and being, you know, just, um, You know, just focusing on what's important, and then it came time to, okay, now that we're be that's behind us, you know, what does the future look like?
Do I go back? Do I start something new? And I realized when looking at [00:13:00] the industry at a whole, as a whole, that, my passion was designing. I really wanted to build something that was my own and that could grow. It sounds strange, but on my terms, so I could lean into like demos and things like that.
You know, I could speak. I spend my time, um, where I was, I always try to make a win win situation, you know, where we're just whether I'm meeting with the client for the first time or the fifth time, it's fun. And we're, you know, going down that lighting road together. So I have been able to do that. And then.
As I've put that together, I've also thought about all the home shows that I've been at, and all the builders and the landscapers that I've met with over the years, and I thought there [00:14:00] is really another opportunity there, which I believe, um, I don't see any outdoor lighting designers or companies really trying to be a resource in this area.
And that is kind of where the name came from design go lighting. But if you are a do it yourself or, or if you have a new home with just the foundation, meaning, you know, the beginning of the landscaping in place, there is not a need, to spend. a great deal of money on labor. I can help you put together a phenomenal design, get the fixtures in place that fit your installation.
Meaning, is it just the most cost effective solid brass fixtures that go on and off? Or is it perhaps the next step up where you've got some zoning and [00:15:00] dimming so you can control the different areas? Or is it full color changing from an app on your phone? You know, what are the fixtures that you need for your installation?
How does that work? That's, that's where I can be a wonderful resource. Right. And so,
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, I mean, so what is, you know, you've, been in this industry, you understand this industry. Um, from a sales standpoint, how are you, how are you coming in differently or are you coming in differently than you have in the past?
 
Angela Lingle : Yeah. No, I, I completely understand what you're saying and I think, uh, part of what I'm doing now.
Having, conversations about, uh, the opportunities, the possibilities, budgeting, a more, you know, I think in the past, I've always talked about when putting together a plan, you know, [00:16:00] uh, I always tried to present options, you know, so, you know, as I just mentioned, you know, is it just, The, the standard fixture zoning, zimming, zoning, dimming, or color changing, you know, so I could help the, uh, client make decisions, help it work around their budget.
But for the first time now, also having that conversation about the installation. Okay. What makes the most sense? You know, is there an opportunity here perhaps to cut the cost of outdoor lighting in half? Oh, wow. You know, and, and have the same final result, or on the other hand, working with a landscaper who is in the ground already.
Maybe is designing the hardscape lights because they built this beautiful outdoor kitchen, but they don't, um, illuminate the tree that is 10 feet [00:17:00] away. So, you know, working with them as their partner, helping build their business, offer outdoor lighting as part of their installation, and then doing the work behind the scenes to make sure it works flawlessly together.
Leighann Lovely: Well, and that's And Angela, that makes, that makes so much more sense because if you're already digging in the ground why have somebody then go back and dig in the ground and ruin the landscape to, to lay any wires or any, Anything that you would need for your lighting.
Angela Lingle : Exactly right. And by taking that approach to come working with the landscaper, going in at the same time, it does a couple of things.
It keeps the cost down for the homeowner. Like you said, you're going in once. The other thing it does is, boy, it makes that landscaper look good. Do you know what I mean? Well, it makes [00:18:00] everybody investing all this money. Right. Do you want to enjoy it at night? Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. at night?
Right. And even if they don't, you know, even if they're like, you know what, I appreciate that, but we're not going to do that at this time. You've opened up the door, you've made it an opportunity for them to perhaps consider in the future. I just think it makes you look, uh, the very best you can be. You know what I mean?
 
Leighann Lovely: This is new small business. We as small business owners are figuring out that, well, why aren't we working together? Why aren't we as small business owners working together to all different aspects and what businesses make sense as affiliated partners. To work together. So a landscaping company, an outdoor lighting company, even a, water [00:19:00] feature, a water feature.
I was just, I was just thinking, that's another
Angela Lingle : podcast because
Leighann Lovely: right. That's the whole thing.
Angela Lingle : Yeah.
Leighann Lovely: Because you had, you had a gentleman who does water, all water features at your party that he puts in. You know, different type of water features from very small to extremely large, you know, even natural swimming pools, which was insane, you know, so those, and, and let me tell you, if I'm going to put in a natural swimming pool or a pond, I I'm going to want to see it, you know?
So, I mean, that's, it's a brilliant, And a lot of businesses that exist today, today that have been going for a long period of time, in my opinion, this is not, this is not a fact of any, but they have trouble shifting. to create those new partnerships because [00:20:00] they're just been chugging along doing really well the way that they're doing it.
And I hate this old, you know, break it if it ain't, or don't fix it if it ain't broken, but business is shifting and the way that people do business. You know, is shifting and you, it sounds like you're, you're doing it right, right away.
Angela Lingle : You know, I appreciate that. And I think you're exactly right. It's rather than working as all these different or individual businesses, you know, the ones that really make sense to work together.
Form that strategic partnership, do those home shows together, you know, put the lighting next to the water feature, uh, with some beautiful information about lawn service. You know, I mean, it just makes sense. And then on the other side, you know, I believe,
Marker
Angela Lingle : I really believe, and maybe that's why it all works, is as [00:21:00] I meet with a homeowner and I say, Spend, you know, like an hour, an hour and a half with them walking around, taking notes, drawing their property.
 I can't help but notice, opportunities for them to enjoy their property even more. And it's such a win-win to be able to share. You know, I know somebody that could really, you know, be a resource in this area. After our meeting, I'm going to share, I'm going to follow up with an email introduction and, you know, I hope that's helpful kind of thing.
I got to get you out to my
Leighann Lovely: win win. I got to get you out to my property one of these days because you're going to be recommending a landscaper, the lighting, the water feature. You're going to be,
Angela Lingle : right? Cause that's going to be expensive. But, you know, but you mentioned it earlier,
Marker
Angela Lingle : we spend so much money on decorating the inside of our home.
It is amazing how much fun it is to spend some money on the [00:22:00] outside of your home. Because it really, it's fantastic in the summertime when you're out there and the sunset is going down and you're still enjoying all the lighting. But right now it is amazing because it gets dark. Well, we know, my goodness, 4 30 at night, it's almost dark.
So what do I see when I look at out? I don't see darkness. I see the most beautiful trees at a season that all the leaves are gone. So now the character of their branches comes out, you know, it, and I see my hardscape and my, it's just beautiful. So, and, and now I. What I do is I swap out color, uh, red and green bulbs in my, in my path lights and things like that.
And so it just, it's like instant Christmas, with just swapping out some bulbs, but I, I absolutely love it. So I guess the reason I mentioned it is it is year round, whether you're outside coming home to it or inside looking out.
Leighann Lovely: I completely agree. And, and you know, it just popped into my head when you [00:23:00] said, you know, the trees, the way the trees look, there was a night when the, we had a full moon, a complete full moon that was bright, bright, bright, and we had just had fresh fallen snow last year.
And obviously, you know, we all know when there's fresh, fresh snow and the moon is full. Even in the darkest place, you can get that reflection where it seems bright. And I have a picture of a tree in my backyard that is just illuminated by the moon and the snow. Um, and I remember thinking, wow, this is beautiful.
One of the most beautiful Natural looking well it is it was 100 percent natural and we had had a heavy snowfall So that like the snow was just hanging on the trees But to be able to look out and see that all the time to see and I and I have a lot of wooded You know trees Area in my backyard, but to be able to look at that and actually see it like is, it would be amazing.
And, and I can't, I can't see most of my tree. It's too dark. But yeah. [00:24:00] What is
Angela Lingle : nature's most beautiful things is an ice storm.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. I, I, not when you're standing in it, but when you look at it, when you're inside looking out, it's gorgeous. It's so cool being able to see the snow, but you can't, if you don't have any light and it's.
It's pitch black. You know, you're standing at the glass going, Oh,
Angela Lingle : you know, two things I have to mention real quick along those lines. One is, cause I get this question all the time. Uh, when, you know, if, if there, if there's a blizzard or on snow, do the lights continue to go on? Do you know what I mean? Or does it, is that going to cover the lights and they're not going to work?
 Fortunately for us, even though they're led bulbs. Uh, burning very cost effectively, uh, they do burn warm enough that they're going to melt the snow. Usually, yeah, if it's falling, they're going to melt the snow if it falls. If it falls all day long, it's going to take a little bit of time once those lights go on at [00:25:00] dusk for that to burn through the snow, but then they're going to be working and it is a Beautiful to watch a blizzard, um, from inside,
Leighann Lovely: It's so awesome.
How passionate you are about that. I mean, if you love what you do, you will never work a day in your life. You know, it's, . And, and again, you're, you're speaking to somebody, you know, who loves what she does as well. So you and I are completely on the same page when it comes to that, you know, it's the passion just oozes out of you.
Angela Lingle : Yeah. And the other thing I just want to mention before we go any further is you mentioned the natural beauty of like, uh, the moonlight. And what that does to a tree. And it's, it's kind of like in the summer time or when the sun shines, you know, you get all these shadows of, of the branches and things like that.
Well, one of the things that we offer, and I just did an installation like that, is
Marker
Angela Lingle : coming down the driveway. You know, maybe typically they had trees on both sides, so they'd go up [00:26:00] like up late, up late. Yep. And you'd come down, you know, beautiful. But we took a different approach. We did downlight, downlight, downlight.
They are up in the trees, with branches in the way. And so as you come down the driveway, it feels like moonlight taking you down. It is so beautiful. So that's why You know, talking about as when we started the most beautiful effect with the fewest number of fixtures, it's just brilliant. Do you know what I mean?
One fixture up in the trees illuminates a large area. There's no maintenance as far as snow removal or anything like that because everything's up in the trees. Right. It just makes so much sense, but it's kind of sometimes out of the box thinking, you know, but, uh, I guess just circling back to beautiful lighting design takes advantage of like the beautiful trees and things like that.
And how can we [00:27:00] replicate, you know, the, the beauty of, you know, what nature would give us. So it does feel very natural and not, You know, real harsh or anything like that. Right.
Leighann Lovely: So we are coming to time, but I'm going to hit you with a hard question. So it's not that. And then I'll give you, you know, a 30 seconds, um, pitch where you can kind of, you know, pitch your company.
And, if you had. to reflect on this journey thus far. And you had to, you know, give advice to somebody who is considering going out on their own or, you know, a salesperson struggling, um, you know, to try to figure out, you know, how to level up. What advice would you give somebody from everything that you have learned and every, you know, over the course of your career, um, would you.
Still choose the [00:28:00] path you've chosen. What advice would you give to somebody?
Angela Lingle : Wow, that's a very interesting question. I guess I would because I have never been happier and more excited about my future. And as I meet with people, I just, I just have a passion now that has been elevated, because it's my own and because, um, and this is what I would recommend to people is whether I'm in, whether I'm meeting with a customer, whether I'm in a networking situation, whether I'm talking to my Kids, you know, it is, how can I help you today?
Do you know what I mean? Like what is going on? How can I be a resource? And so I think when you're always, [00:29:00] um, thinking about the future and thinking about the person that's across from you, you know, and how can I lift their day better or be a resour up coming back to you. An not even what's on your m up happening just about e So I guess I would say lo um, are closest to you, or that you think that you could be a real resource for and go ahead and go out there and do it and be the best you can be.
And I think you'd be surprised on how many people are, Going to take notice and, uh, kind of follow your journey as you go along. Uh, the other thing I would mention is, we talked about it earlier, strategic partners, you know, look for those people that have the same customer base, [00:30:00] form a relationship with those people.
So it's genuine and you believe in them and they believe in you. So when you get in front of your customers, you can talk about their companies like it was your own. Form those partnerships, see what you can do together, uh, marketing wise, you know, whether it be home shows, prints, advertisements, you know, whatever it is, uh, websites going back and forth together.
 You know, make the most of those relationships because then it just goes back to that win, win, win. All of a sudden now it's not just a win, win. It's a win, win, win your customer wins, you win. And you know, your strategic partner wins. So
Leighann Lovely: that's you, you have a true servant heart and that makes for a, an amazing human being and somebody who's going to truly succeed when it comes to, you know, making their clients happy and cultivating those relationships.
So that's amazing. Now you have a [00:31:00] 32nd pitch. If you would like to, you know, offer up how to reach out to you, if you are looking for lighting, you know, Take it away.
Angela Lingle : Well, thank you so much again. I appreciate this opportunity. I would welcome the opportunity to be an outdoor lighting resource for you, your home, your business.
 We talked a lot about, illuminating your home and making it fun to come home each night. Eliminating dark spots, uh, dangerous steps, um, at the same time as just increasing the beauty of your home. So love to be a resource. A lot of times that starts with a phone call talking about how I can help and then scheduling the best meeting time.
You know, is it an hour before dusk so we can talk about your needs and then go ahead and put up some fixtures and see what it looks like. I can do that all winter long. So I welcome the opportunity. The other thing I just wanted to mention is [00:32:00] I do help businesses. You know, I think a lot of times people drive past, uh, an established business and you do it a hundred times and all of a sudden it just, I call it, you know, it's almost like white noise, but it's light noise.
Mm-hmm . But anyway, so there's an opportunity there to add, uh, beautiful uplighting, color changing lighting, you know, just something that taps people on the shoulder that says, you know what, we are here, we serve the public. You know, whatever their message is, I can help with that. So, I would just love to be a resource.
Homes, businesses, landscapers, builders, you know, just about anybody who's looking to add a little sparkle. I'd love to be a resource. And how can somebody reach out to you? Oh, uh, I have a one, a wonderful website design, go lighting. com. I'm, on LinkedIn, uh, my email. is Angela at design, go lighting.
[00:33:00] com and feel free to call me and text me on my cell phone 262 893 6558.
Leighann Lovely: And all of that contact information will be in the show notes. So if you are looking to reach out to Angela, please refer to the show notes and you will be able to find that information. Angela, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation.
I really appreciate your time today.
Angela Lingle : Right back at you, Leanne. Thank you.
 

Sales Ethics: Earning Respect in a Changing Field

In this engaging episode of "Love Your Sales," hosts Leighann Lovely and Rob Durant delve into the intricacies of the sales profession, exploring the challenges and misconceptions faced by salespeople. They tackle issues like overcoming the negative stereotypes perpetuated by Hollywood and the importance of ethical selling. The conversation highlights the critical role of proper training and certification, with insights into how sales professionals can elevate their craft to gain the same respect as other certified professions. Durant's experience and wisdom shine through as he shares the mission of the Institute of Sales Professionals to standardize and elevate sales education. The episode wraps up with practical advice for new sales professionals on navigating rejection and choosing the right job opportunities.
Contact Rob-
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/robdurant/
Email - rob.durant@isp-us.org  
Website - https://isp-us.org/
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com
 
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Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am thrilled. I'm joined by Rob Durant today. Rob began his sales journey as a reluctant seller. He claims that he was tricked. Into his first sales role now as the CEO of a U. S. Operations for the Institute of sales professionals.
He is responsible for expanding the I. S. P. S. Global presence in the U. S. The I. S. P. [00:02:00] Has one simple goal to elevate the professional, the I'm sorry, the profession of sales. Its mission is to bring the level of credibility and respect afforded to doctors, CPAs, and teachers to the sales profession, which I absolutely love.
I mean, because. Far too often we hear, you know, Oh, they're a salesperson or, you know, somebody calls you and you're like, Oh, sales call, I don't want to answer. So Rob, I am so thrilled and excited to dive into this conversation.
Rob Durant: Leighann, thank you so much for having me here today. I too am, I'm looking forward to it.
You know, it's a pretty challenging profession when those in your own profession don't want to speak with you.
Leighann Lovely: And I've said this before, early on in my career, I would, I hadn't really [00:03:00] figured out networking quite yet. And I would go to these networking meet and I was taught to do it wrong, right? Um, they're Go in there. So make sure that you're making the most of your time. I'm paying for you to be there. Hand out your business card and come back with a sale.
And I remember I would see people who I knew were like financial advisors or, you know, real estate agents or, and I'm like, Oh, the salespeople, I don't want to talk to the salespeople yet. I'm a salesperson. And I would be like, run, run away, you know, because yet, you know, and I'm, I'm dogging my own profession.
Right. And it's like, Okay. What am I, you know, and I'm married to a man who's like, God, I hate salespeople. I'm like, honey, you're, you're insulting me. And he's like, well, no, no, no. I love you. And I'm like, well, that's a good, but yeah, even us who are profession, you know, our profession is to go and, you know, sell something ultimately at the end of the day.[00:04:00]
have made that same comment, like, Oh man, another salesperson. So let's, let's talk about that. Sure.
Rob Durant: Is it really just Hollywood's fault? I mean, we can blame Hollywood, right? When you think about it, how are salespeople depicted? In TV and the movies, the used car salesman and, the smarmy evil, um, financial trickster, those are, um, really what people who aren't in the profession, profession think of when they think of salespeople, but can we really blame Hollywood?
Because isn't that just Hollywood imitating life rather than life imitating art? Absolutely. We've earned this.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. And the sales professional and the [00:05:00] profession itself has changed. Absolutely. It's evolved to be something very different than it was back in the day when we, when we referenced, because we do, even I have referenced.
You know, the, the car salesman, especially the used car sales salesman. Oh, I got a lemon at dams. You sales salesmen or that, you know, and often we, we refer back, but that's where that kind of, that started, right? Sure. Oh, he swindled me into buying this. Did he, did he swindle you into, or did he use and leverage language?
That was catering to what you already had in your head. And sometimes it's both. And sometimes it's both because you're right. There are people out there who, and it's kind of like a magician.
I [00:06:00] mean, at the end of the day, a magician really is just a really, really good. Sales person. Sure. And kind of a trickster, you know, at the same time, but the difference
Rob Durant: is there. We want to be tricked. We want to be fooled. And so we buy into it.
Marker
Rob Durant: I happen to be teaching my intro to marketing course the other day.
And we were talking about the chapter of personal selling, which is academic speak for sales. And I was asking the students about, you know, why do you believe this perception of salespeople going beyond the, you know, blaming Hollywood part? And one of them piped up, they lie again. I think we've all been on the receiving end of too many bad sales processes to refute that.
And I said to him, I understand where you're coming from, but one of the first things I teach my salespeople is [00:07:00] we don't lie, we don't cheat, we don't steal. And a lie by omission is still a lie. Oh, so that, that trickster component that you were talking about, that's. Less and less applicable because we're getting harder and harder to fool.
And, it's Dan Pink in, I get these books confused. Cause I, I use them together. Dan Pink has a number of books, but two of them, I think, pair well together. He wrote the book Drive, which talks about motivations and he wrote the book Drive, which talks about motivations and he wrote the book Drive, Uh, to sell as human, which really breaks down if you consider selling to influence the decision of someone else, nine out of 10 people, according to the evidence that he had put forth in this book, nine out of 10 people are in a sales [00:08:00] capacity in some way.
And he even contends that 10th person probably is too. But in one of those two books, he was talking about the rise of the internet. And what that did was the, asynchronous isn't the right word for it, but the, um, inequality of information where it used to be. Prior to everything being available to everyone, only salespeople had the inside information on the products and the pricing and so on and so forth.
But with the internet and the informed buyers coming into this process, he contends that the playing field is now level. I actually believe it's not level. I believe at this point. It favors the buyer because there's one critical piece of information the buyer still has that the seller is not aware, and that's their [00:09:00] inclination to buy their price point their walk away.
You can, as a salesperson, try and suss that out, but I have more information that than you do as we come into this conversation now.
Leighann Lovely: That's a very interesting, which is wildly interesting that you say that. Which is also why, to date, I have come, many salespeople, I'm just going to say I, many salespeople, and a lot of the training that salespeople go through, one of the critical questions that is asked that I tell my salespeople that they need to ask, and if they're not asking this, they're going to lose nine times out of ten, which is, what is your budget?
It's, it's plain and simple, because that person already has an idea. With all of the information in the world, they already have an idea of where or what that price point should be coming in at. If you, usually, if [00:10:00] I go out and I say I need a new website, you know, Rob, can you build me a website? And you come in and you say, well, it's going to be 10, 000.
And I've already done my research to have kind of an understanding that, well, I only need two or three pages, You're really building a website. It's that's really unheard of. If you're building like a mass, unless you're literally just creating a landing page. And even just with a landing page, sometimes there's an about you section that you want to go to.
And which is not truly anyways, I digress, but that, that buyer, if they have not gone and educated themselves to understand the difference between like a mass rebuild and. You know, to have a little bit of understanding of what the difference 1, 000 website looks like versus a complete and total mass, huge websites, then they're not, they shouldn't be buying this or making that decision on their own.
Does that make sense?
Rob Durant: Does. [00:11:00] But one caution I would have to a salesperson who asks that question is you cannot lead with it.
Leighann Lovely: No. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You have to earn
Rob Durant: the right to get there.
Leighann Lovely: Yes, absolutely. No, you don't just walk in and go, okay, Rob, what's your budget?
Rob Durant: But some do. Hey, this is bent. You know, the first question I've got to ask you is your budget.
Leighann Lovely: No, right. No, you need to build up. You need to build, you know, trust. You need to build the no like and trust factor. They before you get to that point. After they have an understanding of what you do, you've built up that know, like, and trust, then it comes down to, okay, so if we're going to move forward, let me understand what we're working with.
Let me have an idea of where we're at with everything, because I don't want to come back and pitch them this mass rebuild if 3, 000. Then we're, we're, we're talking about two completely different [00:12:00] things, but if you, if you have an idea, you are way more likely, and I've seen this, I've seen that mishap, that mistake so often in salespeople, where they're going in and selling the world, and this, and your, and your prospect is going, Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, I, I don't need I don't need all of these things.
However, you should be also, you know, figuring this out through discovery, but I digress again. Let's talk about let's let's talk about how. We, how our industry, how sales professionals can start leveling up to create the ability to be looked at as professionals, because this is part of what, you know, your mission is, right?
Well, in your bio, your mission is to help sales, the profession of sales. And, [00:13:00] and so talk me through.
Rob Durant: So the ISP, the Institute of Sales Professionals is centered around the three C's content, certification, and community content, um, among the many things that we offer in terms of content, podcasts and webinars and so on. We have over a thousand hours of training in an LMS system. That our members get access to.
In fact, we are in the process of building and associates, uh, affiliates program where you do not have to subscribe to gain access to much of the content that we are providing. So from content, we then move to certification. The Institute of sales professions is [00:14:00] authorized. By the United Kingdom's government office of qualification to provide people with a certification in sales foundations and a certification in ethical selling.
And the unique thing about these certifications is there's nothing else like this in the world. Even as we look at other professional bodies. The professional body's authority to issue certifications generally comes from the fact that the body has existed and the industry acknowledges it. Our body has existed, our industry has acknowledged it, and we go through an annual audit from the UK government saying, yes, in fact, this is a rigorous set of credentials.
And while I'd [00:15:00] love to tell you that everyone who takes the ethics certification exam passes, and make no mistake about it, there is a certification exam, the fact of the matter is About 70 percent of the people that take it pass. So it's not just a certificate of attendance or a certificate of dues paid.
There is rigor to it. We want you to know what it takes to go into such an exam because the expectation is having had all of that training. At least some of it will stick. Right. So we've got the content and credentialing. The biggest opportunity there is community. We already do this. Thanks. In many ways, shapes and forms, we as salespeople already exchange ideas [00:16:00] and best practices and, and so on.
What the ISP does not want to get into is, here's the easy button for this, or here's the best hack for that. Instead, we go the opposite way. We look to uh, academia to tell us a lot of what the research in sales and sales enablement is telling us and how do we apply that in the the day to day. So it's those three C's that really help us forward the mission of elevating the profession of sales to be recognized as at least on par with other professions that go through similar credentialing and certifications.
Leighann Lovely: And here's the word that stood out to me, obviously [00:17:00] is ethical because When it comes, you know, a CPA, for instance, um, a teacher, a doctor, we just assume and understand that I'm using the word assume on purpose, because when we go to an accountant, we make an assumption that an accountant is going to be ethical and moral because they've gone through extreme testing.
They've gone through, you know, taking the, their exams, a doctor. I want to. I'm going to hope, I'm going to assume, I'm going to use all of those and say, God, you know, this doctor better be ethical. He better be moral. If I'm going to, especially if I'm going to a surgeon or in a teacher, if I'm sending my child somewhere, I want to see that, you know, that they're ethical.
Absolutely. And that's the thing that's, that I think people [00:18:00] assume salespeople are not from those Hollywood movies and from those, yet the majority of the people that I rub shoulders with in networking meetings, I won't say all. Because there are a lot of them out there. And again, I am sure that there are doctors and teachers and CPAs that are not, but we make an assumption based on what we have been taught and what we see again, using what you have already said in Hollywood.
Oh, then, you know, there's a CPA. Of course, now, now we have more and more movies where, oh, there's a CPA who's, you know, smuggling or whatever it might be. We have been taught that those professions are ethical, moral human beings. Absolutely. Well, we go into
Rob Durant: those offices and we sit opposite their desk and on the wall behind them, whether it is that doctor or the CPA or even that teacher, they have [00:19:00] a framed certificate on the wall from a credentialing body.
And that tells us without question, they were held to a certain level of ethics. They were trained in it, they were tested in it, and they are held to it. There is no equivalent in sales right
Leighann Lovely: now. And, and I will tell you that some of the people that I have met in the professional I work in are the most.
Moral, ethical, and the reason they went into the industry, the reason they do what they do is because they have sought out a profession in which they are capable of helping people in a way they have not been in previous careers. Right. I, and, and I am one of them. I, I started in HR. And because of the time that [00:20:00] I was living in, and again, we all have, we've all gone through seasons.
My, uh, my degree came during 2006, seven, eight in a time when the U S was crumbling. We were falling apart. We, you know, and I was trying to figure out what do I want to be when I grow up in a way in a capacity that I could help people. And when I think of a salesperson, especially the ones that I rub shoulders with, the ones that I keep close, my referral sources, they are very ethical.
They are very moral people because I don't want to do business with people who are not. They, and many of them, many of people who I've met through business have become friends because, of who they are and what they do. They want to do whatever industry they're in. They are trusted advisors, consultants, project managers in some type of capacity in selling, in guiding their clients [00:21:00] to a proper decision.
They are also the people who will say at the end of the day, if they're meeting with somebody and their product is not right for them, my product is not right for me, but maybe I can connect you with somebody who has the right product for you.
Rob Durant: Exactly.
Leighann Lovely: And, and the funny thing is, is that when I, when I do say that to somebody, sometimes they get offended.
Well, what do you mean your product isn't right for me? And it's like, just take my money. Right. Well, do you want me to sell something that is not a fit for you? Because then that would make me the sleazy salesperson that is depicted in Hollywood. Exactly.
Rob Durant: Exactly. I. I love that you said that you know so many that are highly ethical and you talked about how they are helpers.
Marker
Rob Durant: I would say the significant majority of people in sales are highly [00:22:00] ethical and are in it, at least in part, Because of the great feeling of helping others when you were talking about, the great majority and, and comparing it to the other professions immediately came to mind the scene in the wizard of Oz, where Dorothy and the tin man and the cowardly lion and the scarecrow met the wizard.
 What he said to the scarecrow was Effectively, you've had this all along, the only thing you didn't have was the piece of paper proving it. Granted, we're talking about more than simply a piece of paper proving it, but we are talking about simply having a standard that is set and met. And by having that [00:23:00] standard in place and having the credibility behind what goes into that standard, again, as I alluded to, it's not simply a certificate of attendance or your check cleared.
It is the fact that you have honed your profession just as those others have. You've been working on your profession equally to anyone else that goes through those other certifications. This is just an opportunity to say, I have been recognized by my peers that I am a valued part of this profession.
Leighann Lovely: I love how you use that analogy because there needs to be a certain standard.
 In how do we measure something if there isn't a standard, if there isn't, if we never created our, you know, Inches or feet. How would we [00:24:00] ever be able to tell somebody? exactly how tall they are. A standard measuring system. But here's, here's the question that came to mind as you were explaining, you know, for, I've always been, been not always many people will say that, you know, sales is in the reason that sales is not a regularly taught thing at a college.
You can't go to college and be like, I'm going to go to college and get my degree in because Sales is so much of a personality trait, right? It's either you have some of the ability to just walk up to somebody and be comfortable in an environment where things are so unknown. An accountant goes into work and him or her, them or they, it's black and white.
They know what their job is. They [00:25:00] understand what the outcome is going to be. I need to balance this. I need to get the general ledger. You know, I need to do all of these functions so that my client at the end of the day, understands their numbers, has to pay their quarterly taxes, payroll. There's, there's no black and white there as far as I'm concerned.
Um, most accountants that I'll, you know, that I talked to, there's like, yeah, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty much, you know, this is, this is the law. This is how we go in sales. I've never had the same conversation twice. I mean, I've had some of the same objections come up and, you know, but a lot of it is just understanding how to shift and move and twist and go with the flow.
Rob Durant: Absolutely. However, I'm going to push back a little bit because what I think I heard you alluding to was there are some people who. Are able to do a sales role [00:26:00] in some people who are just. They don't have the socialization skill.
Leighann Lovely: And yes, and no, because I'm also going to say that I am a believer that every human that is born into this world sells.
Rob Durant: Absolutely.
Leighann Lovely: Because from the, from the day my daughter entered in this world, into this world. She began selling, negotiating and getting what she wanted in one way or another. I am a hundred percent after I became a mother, I went, wow, this kid is like a master negotiator and she's six. Like, I mean, because I've seen it firsthand and I see these little six year olds, you know, she's I'm using six year old because like I said, she's six.
I see them negotiating with each other. Doesn't matter whether or not they're shy, doesn't matter, you know, if they're. Like my daughter, who is a complete and total extrovert [00:27:00] running around talking, they all have the ability to negotiate because it's an inherent thing that we just do, you know, like, I don't want to play on the playground right now.
Well, I do. Well, how about we do it for five minutes and then we do what I want to do. Okay.
Rob Durant: Master negotiators.
Leighann Lovely: That is a. Like a very dumbed down version of negotiations.
Rob Durant: Yep. Uh, to call back to Dan Pink's book, to sell as human.
Leighann Lovely: Exactly. And when you said that, I was like, yep, absolutely. I've seen it. It is a complete, I mean, even to the day where parents are like, I can't get her to sleep in her crib.
Every time we walk out of the room, the cries. Yeah. As soon as you walk back in that room, that baby just figured out exactly what they need to do. To get you to buy into them.
Rob Durant: [00:28:00] Exactly. So we are on the same page there. I was just going to say that some of the best sales people that I know aren't necessarily gregarious.
They are not necessarily going to, be extroverted. Uh, the introvert that has An innate ability to listen can be incredibly successful in a sales role. In fact, I contend these days, that skill is more valuable in sales than is the gift of GAAP. Yes. And the other thing I wanted to share with you, mostly for your audience, because I was under the presumption and I used to joke about it.
They don't teach sales in college. They actually do now.
Leighann Lovely: Okay that, I did not know [00:29:00] that.
Marker
Rob Durant: There are about 26, 000 students in the U. S. right now studying for either a sales major or sales minor. The uh, Sales Education Foundation just last week put out their annual education uh, publication listing the schools and the programs that they have and so on.
So while it used to be a funny joke at my expense, now I can no longer say that. The counterpoint to that is, let's compare that to the number of schools that offer marketing degrees, just as an example. It's exponentially more. So there's a lot of opportunity there for schools to embrace that. But there is in fact, uh, a major in sales
Leighann Lovely: that I did not know that.
So, and here's where I always go back. It's like, [00:30:00] okay, you can teach the foundation of what you need to do in sales. What I struck and you can teach as somebody is starting to, you can teach how to overcome objections. And I, and I remember one of my first jobs, I annoyed the heck out of every other salesperson because I would come into this meeting and, you know, it was, this meeting would go as long as it had to, to answer everybody's questions, which I didn't know early on.
Everybody hated this Friday morning meeting. It was mandatory. All the salespeople had to attend. Um, and so I would come in with my notes to all of the cold calls that I had made for the last week. And I'd be like, okay, so here's the objection that I got. How do I overcome this? And all the salespeople would be like, shh, that's your last, don't answer any more, don't ask any more questions.
And I'm like, yeah, but this is a really good way to learn. Like, and man, did I learn so much. And the owner of that company really [00:31:00] took me under his wing because he saw that I was taking initiative. And he's like, well, if you're going to want to learn, I will teach you anything you want to learn. I, I did learn to stop asking the questions in that meeting because all the salespeople hated me.
Shame on them. Well, yeah, a lot of them were, you know, had been at the company 10 plus years and they were just like sitting in a meeting for four hours on a Friday morning, listening to the newbie. Some of the, some of those things, you know, like, and maybe I, maybe I'm just. That old school mentality of either you got it or you don't.
But I've, I have also seen people who have come out of their shell because you've given them an opportunity. And then I've seen others just crumble because they just can't handle the nose.
Rob Durant: Yeah. Rejection. Nobody likes rejection. That's probably one of the, the biggest [00:32:00] challenges in the role is not taking it so personally, or if you're really good, taking it as feedback for going out and improving yourself.
That, that's not easy.
Leighann Lovely: The individuals who are those lifelong learners. who are willing to digest those no's and realize that it's not me. It might just be, you know, and I've gotten some, I mean, in my career, if you're, if you are a long term salesperson and that you've, you know, been in it for as long as I have, or, you know, Rob, as long as I've gotten some, some major, You know, swings, you know, I've had somebody call me back and start screaming and swearing at me.
Don't ever call me again. How dare you? It's like, and, and I've just chalked it up to, well, [00:33:00] this person was having a really bad day, right? And I got them on a really, like, something else was happening because for them to think that I'm the enemy. Because I called and said, Hey, can we talk about staffing services?
And that's how I, I guess, teach my people. Is that a no is just no right now. Unless they say, you know, we're closing our doors or we've, we haven't hired in 20 years, so we don't need staffing. And I'm using staffing as an, you know, As a sample or example or whatever, but just no right now. Mm-Hmm, and I've just always kind of taken that.
So if you had to give advice to, you know, a younger person who's thinking about taking a career or looking at a career in sales, [00:34:00] what advice would you give somebody? Sales can
Rob Durant: be a fantastic career. You can make a lot of money. I mean. A lot of money. Uh, you can travel the world. Don't mistake business travel for personal travel.
You get to meet incredible people, but it can also be very challenging. And for very much the reason that you were saying it's a lot of no's. It's a lot of pressure in very few other careers. Is your performance measured so overtly and so regularly? I think professional athletes probably are the only ones whose performance is measured more regularly and more public,
but there are things that you can do to continually improve that [00:35:00] performance to continually, uh, have better and better experiences with it. I, Again, we'll talk about the, class I had in my intro to marketing and talking with the students about it just the other day,
Marker
Rob Durant: I was saying that when you're in the interview process, whether it's a sales job or any other job for that matter, it's incumbent upon you to screen for the right opportunities.
There are some sales jobs that just suck. There's no other way to put it. And as somebody new in their career, you probably haven't figured out what red flags to look for yet. But there are resources out there now to help you things like glass door reviews and things like rep view for sales specific roles can tell you what to look for, what [00:36:00] to avoid, which companies, which all of that.
And in terms of. The sales skills. I wanted to get back to that because you, you had mentioned, you know, we'll,
Marker
Rob Durant: we can teach overcoming objections and so on in terms of a sales foundation. I believe there are four elements that go into a strong foundation when you are new to a company and those are, of course you want to know the companies.
Products and price points and their playbook. You know, how do we go to market? How do we reach our prospects along those same lines? We want to know the systems are what phone system do they use? What CRM system, what email cadence and so on. Those can be taught in a somewhat general capacity. [00:37:00] In so much as give people exposure to the concept of these things, but they're very specific to each individual role.
The other two pieces that are more aligned with every role out there are business acumen and communication skills. And I was sharing this story with somebody recently when I was tasked with developing an onboarding and ongoing training program as a sales enablement leader at a tech startup. I came in with this proposal and said, I want to hit these four elements, our, product and price, our systems, um, business acumen and communication.
And they turned to me and said, Rob. You have to cut your training in half, teach them our product and price, teach them our systems. We hire them because of their business [00:38:00] acumen and their communication skills. I said, really, where did they get them? You hired them because of the employer before? Well, the higher employer before didn't train them on those things either.
You hired them because they took, a sales major at a university. Not very likely. Right. Um, and I know some history majors that made fantastic salespeople. I know plenty of people that didn't go to college at all that are incredibly successful in sales. But the difference between giving them that foundation in basic Business communications and basic business operations is the difference between them taking three years to ramp up and 10 years to ramp up.
They're both going to get there, [00:39:00] but you've told me your business doesn't have time to wait. Why not set the foundation better from the onset? You can teach them one of two times. You can teach them at the beginning, or you can teach them when you have to go back and reteach them every
Leighann Lovely: and so many companies.
And being in the staffing industry for as long as I was, so many industries will go, we don't have time to train. So just send us somebody who is, you know, ready to just go. And then they bring this person on and they're like, cause yeah, Oh my God, he's got 15 years. He's going to be great. And three months in, they're like, This person is not qualified.
And you're like, no, they're wildly qualified, but you can't hire a person and bring them in and just give them no direction, no tools, and just literally give them a computer and be like, okay, there you go. Because you are too lazy as a company to [00:40:00] want to train. They, they need to know your culture. They need to know your, you know, they need to know who are as a business.
They, they're representing you. And even though you've Taught him your price points. You've taught him your products. You taught him that you have to work with that person. You have to offer them all the tools in the support. They need to feel like they're part of you, the company that matters. Otherwise, they're just gonna, you're just going to churn and burn these people and they're going to walk right out the door within three to six to nine months.
They will not last beyond that. And I, and you can't, you can, you can tell companies over and over and over and over that it's a you problem, not a them problem. And they'll go, yeah, yeah. No, it's the people you're sending. We're going to, we're going to just hire on our own. Okay. Good luck with that.
Rob Durant: We'll just hire somebody.
If they don't make quota, we can always [00:41:00] fire them, which is extremely expensive. It's not a good business plan. Sorry. It is expensive in ways that companies don't even see. Yes. It's incredibly expensive to recruit and train and. On ramp, any employee, sales is doubly so because
Leighann Lovely: you lose clients. They see that you have, you know, sorry, go ahead.
Rob Durant: Empty seats don't fill quota while they are being recruited and onboarded and up on ramp. They're not driving revenue. And that is the one part of the organization where it's blatantly obvious. As to what they're contributing to the company, so it might suck to have to recruit a new accountant and on board them and on ramp them and all of those [00:42:00] costs associated with it.
Well, if they don't account very right, I can very well. I can always fire them. You can hardly tell. Until, you know, unless it's extreme right. And, and even then it would take a while. Whereas sales, you know, day in and day out, we know what you've done for me lately. Ah, we can always fire them. Right. Do you know what the industry accepted turnover rate is for sales?
I don't. It's 25%. 25%. Is the industry accepted? Norm for turnover. That means when you hire four people in January, you'll have three people in July. You can't scale an organization with that kind of turnover. You can't even maintain an [00:43:00] organization.
Leighann Lovely: And not only that, is that the average employee is no longer staying at companies.
the length of time they used to. So now you have to bank on, of those three that stay, I think what the average length of time that people are now staying is 18 months. So by 18 months from now, most likely you're going to have at least one, possibly two of those people, if you're not making them really happy, if they're not doing really well, they might start sniffing around looking for another opportunity to level up, and then you're going to be hiring some more people.
I mean, it's, it's. It is tough right now in the world that we're living in. And if you're an organization that believes that you need to have your salesperson come into the office every day, Oh, well, you're screwed.
Rob Durant: Yes, it definitely hinders recruiting opportunities. It, uh, [00:44:00] impedes recruiting the best talent. Yep. I understand. The value of unscheduled collaboration, you know, because if it's on a zoom call, it has to be scheduled. I understand the, the value of that, but there are ways to account for that. There are ways to have training and development delivered in such a way that.
It works with remote teams and it's important for. employers to make those kinds of investments.
Leighann Lovely: Well, we are coming to time. I got this, this, it went by so fast. So I want to give you the opportunity for your 30 seconds shameless pitch before we wrap up. So [00:45:00] knock yourself out.
Rob Durant: Thank you very much. I'm Rob Durant and I was a reluctant seller.
In fact, I was tricked into my first sales role. Now, as the CEO of U. S. Operations for the Institute of Sales Professionals, I am seeking to elevate that. the profession of sales to be afforded the respect that other professions like doctors, CPAs, teachers, and other professionals receive. If you want to join me on this mission, I invite you to reach out to me.
You can reach out to me at the Institute of Sales Professionals, or it's very easy to find me on LinkedIn, Rob Durant. On LinkedIn.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And your, website, or wherever you would like, will your LinkedIn profile, your website. Yep. I see that you have that on here will be listed on the show [00:46:00] notes so that somebody, if they want to reach out to you, they will be able to do that.
Rob, I really appreciate, like I said, this conversation went by so fast, but I really appreciate your time today.
Rob Durant: Likewise Leighann. I really had a good time. I look forward to talking to you again soon.
Leighann Lovely: Yes. Thanks. Me as well.

Simplifying Business Connections

The "Love Your Sales" podcast hosted by Leighann Lovely features a deep dive into the struggles and solutions for small business owners and entrepreneurs. In this episode, Leighann interviews Scott LeBeau, a former banking professional turned entrepreneur, who discusses the challenges faced by small businesses. Scott shares insights on his platform, OneSourceDirect, which aims to level the playing field for small businesses by connecting them directly with potential clients without the disadvantages imposed by traditional marketing and search engine constraints. The conversation highlights Scott's passion for helping small businesses and the significance of simplifying marketing efforts. Additionally, the episode touches on the importance of learning from failures and the rise of entrepreneurship since COVID-19.
Contact Scott
Website - www.Onesourcedirect.net  
Email - scott@onesourcedirect.net
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com and Sales Rescue – www.rescuemysales.com
Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
Ready to grow your business? Schedule a call with us today  - https://api.leadconnectorhq.com/widget/bookings/discoverysalesleighann 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am joined today by Scott LeBow. He has got 35 years in the banking industry, working with small to mid size as well as large, Working with large businesses as well. Is that correct, Scott?
Scott LeBeau: Yeah, I've, I've had a couple, but mostly they've been smaller businesses or a lot of consumers and car dealerships, things like that, so.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And he is now the owner, the [00:02:00] founder of OneSourceDirect. And, I am thrilled to have him join me today and, , walk me, walk us through, um, his journey into entrepreneurship. So welcome, Scott. I am so thrilled to have you join me today.
Scott LeBeau: Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Yeah. It's as you know, cause we've had so many side conversation.
It's, it's interesting. We'll use that word today. Okay.
Leighann Lovely: Oh, right. We will use interesting, but Scott, I'm excited to have, like I said, I'm excited to have you come on because you and I have had a lot of side conversations around, um, one source direct and what it does for people. Let's dive a little bit into that because, , it truly is an amazing platform.
So let's talk about that. Okay.
Scott LeBeau: All right. Are you okay if I use your story that I posted on a few weeks ago about your search for the accountant?
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk about that.
Scott LeBeau: I think that just really kind of sums up very well what we're trying to do. [00:03:00] And you know, you had mentioned that you were looking for that accountant and you'd spend three plus days looking for one and really had no, no responses or very limited responses and What we're trying to do is make it so that you could have taken that three day journey and put in the 15 minutes.
And so you could have simply used our platform said, I'm going to go out there. I'm going to look for an accountant. I can create the need form, a little description, what you're looking for, timeframe, just some basic things. And then the minute you hit submit, it goes Directly to any account that's on our platform and it really benefits you because it saves time on your end.
But, you know, when you look at that accountant on the back end that might not have a marketing budget is going to appear on page 15 of the internet searches and things like that, that no one ever looks at. So it's really a way of trying to connect that buyer and seller directly with each other in as easy as as easy as possible process we can put together that makes sense.
But again, it's just a simplified way to connect people.
Leighann Lovely: So it's, um, free [00:04:00] for, that would have been free for me or.
Scott LeBeau: Yes, that part would have been free for you. In fact, if anyone wants, they can go up, go out there and sign up today. Uh, just go to our website, but right for you, it's free, for the account.
They do pay a monthly subscription. And when, you know, with our platform, that subscription is one price for everything that we offer. So even though we have two platforms, every time you want to, you know, send something out, you don't have to pay another charge and create a new campaign. So it's just a much again, simpler, hopefully process for people.
Leighann Lovely: Well, that sounds that sounds amazing. So I, as a small business could put my information out there, explain to the world what I do. And then they, all of the people out there who are on there for free, put out what they are possibly searching for as far as needs. And then I'm advertised directly to them when their need comes up.
Scott LeBeau: Right? Yeah, they connect directly with you. Um, the other thing you could take like [00:05:00] our podcast today and you could actually push that out to people that are looking for, you know, marketing or business development tips. So it's really way about creating a 2 way flow of information so that as a user and in a recent poll we did, we found out that 70 percent of the business owners spend.
More than 11 hours a week on the internet looking for things. Well, this is a way to give them back part of that time, so it comes directly to them. It benefits you from the perspective of, you're trying to reach that customer ultimately. Um, and for them, it's like, you know what, it just shows up in my inbox whenever you post something.
So they can stay up to date on things without really having to invest a great deal of time and effort.
Leighann Lovely: But it, it's information that I want to see.
Scott LeBeau: Yes. You, you pick and choose what offers you want to receive, which could just be, let's say you're going to run a free marketing, what, you know, website analysis or something like that.
So it could be an offer. It could be an article like your podcast right here. You can send that to somebody that says, I want this type of information.
Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. [00:06:00] Okay. Because I mean, on a regular basis, I'm getting spammed by, So much information and honestly, I got to be, you know, realistic if I'm not interested in the information, it goes directly into my delete, delete, delete.
But when I am looking for that information, it feels like it's impossible to find
Scott LeBeau: it. You're right there. It's just a sea of information out there. Like one of my friends always said, it's like drinking water through a fire hose. You're just getting inundated with too much stuff and you stop looking because you don't have time to sift through everything.
So it's kind of like we're helping you unsubscribe before you even try to subscribe. So.
Leighann Lovely: Okay. And so let's, let's go back to the beginning. You've, you've had 35 years in the banking industry and then all of a sudden what you decide to just jump into entrepreneurship. Let's talk about that.
Scott LeBeau: I just woke up one morning and felt the need to change.
Actually partially where this came from is, you know, I've done my internet searches for things that I've had to do for the bank, whether [00:07:00] looking for products or services, whatever. And as a user, I've been inundated with too spammed, like you said before. Also, next thing you know, you're getting unwanted phone calls, emails, pop ups, all this other stuff.
Those are all things that we don't do. Um, so between that and also sitting down and actually working with several business owners that, you know, you hear their stories and you hear the struggles that they have. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard somebody say, you know, I just need that one customer to get me over the hump.
You know, um, So it was partially that, and several business owners, in fact, that I've actually worked with actually closing their businesses are some of the people that helped us put this together. so it's, it's been that and, you know, the, there's a catch 22 in banking. It says, you know, if you have a newer business looking for, you know, hey, I need a loan.
Okay, well, I can't approve your loan because you don't have revenue to pay me back. Okay, but then the customer looks and goes, that's why I wanted the money so [00:08:00] I can invest in marketing so I could get revenue to pay you back. So it really does create some very awkward conversations when, you know, people are just trying to, you know, get, get over the hump and you can't even help them with that.
So it really is about several, several experiences, both personally and professionally that I've dealt with. And, rather than just sitting on the sidelines, I, I talked to the people I knew in business and I talked to some friends that are developers and we sat in, um, in a conference room for, By six or seven straight weeks, you know, like once or twice a week, and this is what we came up with
Leighann Lovely: interesting.
And you're so right. I mean, the number one reason small businesses fails because they run out of money and they can't get a loan from a bank if the bank doesn't feel that they're viable enough to be able to pay them back. And you all of a sudden you're like, I just need like 50, 000 and I will be able to launch my business and I will be able to pay you back.
Like trust me. And they're like, yeah, we don't, we don't loan money to people when they [00:09:00] just say, trust me.
Scott LeBeau: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Character does count, but it has a limit. Um, but you know, you think, or think about that customer that, you know, okay, I have a customer that wants me, is going to give me a million dollar contract if I can develop this product.
Well, if you can't develop the product, you're kissing that, you know, million dollar deal goodbye. So it's, it's tough. And like I said, I've, I've heard a lot of stories over the course of my. Uh, many, many years, decades or whatever of banking, but you know, when you boil it down, it really does come down to the same thing.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. That makes sense. I mean, as an entrepreneur myself, who's, you know, sat and gone, man, if I could just get that revenue up, I could go to the bank. They would give me money and then I would be, you know, set to be able to get over that hump. But you are completely correct. It all comes down to. How do you get the next customer to get you over that hump?
Scott LeBeau: Right. And you know, even from a startup perspective to the, you [00:10:00] know, that's really in a lot of cases where you have to invest that money because with current or a lot of the social media platforms, you really need to figure out a way to get to page one or two, since so many people never go past that.
And it's an expense that not a lot of people can take on, you know, and when you look at COVID, how many people, you know, What it's been almost 4 million businesses, uh, since COVID has started. Well, how many started up because they, they were downsized out, you know, so some of these people, it's not been by choice, but they're at a competitive disadvantage from the word go.
It's not like you left their experiences with their employer. Hey, I'm downsizing you, but, uh, take everything, you know, and put it on this disc and then leave, you know, And, and unfortunately, the social media platforms will, they can actually, what do you call it? Their rating is, uh, the algorithm is based on their number of years in business.
And if you don't meet that minimum requirement, there's no way you're getting to page one. No one's going to find you. So we treat everyone the same. [00:11:00] Everyone has an equal chance to generate a lead, to promote their business through the different channels. In fact, just by signing up for our paid plans, you automatically are eligible to start beginning to start receiving leads.
You don't have to do any marketing or promotion. So
Leighann Lovely: that's, it feels like that would be such just a simple, why wouldn't I do that?
Scott LeBeau: Well, you know, we talked before about branding and getting your name out there. That's the same. A lot of the challenges I saw with these other people are the exact same ones I'm going through right now and just figuring out, you know, how do you, how do you convey your message in a very simple way?
And, as you know, we've tried many different things and changing the message to try to figure out how can I resonate that message or our message, better with somebody so that they know that we're there and, um, it's a challenge.
Leighann Lovely: Right, so it comes down to what makes you, your community, your platform, different [00:12:00] than the other platforms out there, because there are, I mean, there's what, uh, there's, I mean, I can name, Alignable, there's, but those are communities where You have to continue to
Scott LeBeau: contribute and add people and things of that nature.
And with us, you know, built, we understand that and recognize that building a network is not a, it's not an easy task. And I kind of look at, I jokingly, and I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think sometimes some other platforms like pyramid scheming, because they, you know, they ask you to go out and help other people, you know, build their pro, you know, products.
So you can have access to their. You know, they're members and then you expect people to do that for you. So it's, it's kind of a different approach. But we want a community built where that just by signing up, you become a part of that community. You have access to the community, you know, and you can control the information that you receive.
You're not going to get hit with, you know, unwanted phone calls, spam and [00:13:00] pop up ads or any of that stuff, because those are not things that we believe in. You know, again, it's, those are things that put, you know, One business ahead of another one. They, they rewarded the people that have the resources, the, experience or the capabilities to run extensive campaigns.
And, and there's so many people that have great. Business ideas that have great products and services, but they, they're, they can't be found because they don't have the money or the experience that they need or the time to, to really go out and promote your business art.
Leighann Lovely: Right. And, and you think about that and you go online and you, Let's just say, and I know Scott, you've heard me use this one before, but the plumber is of the world, right?
But, so you type in plumber, and the ones that can pay to advertise on any, on any search engine. Will come up at the top and you can see they're, they're paid advertisers. So they pop up at the top, [00:14:00] which means that it is an unfair advantage to those small guys out there. Usually the ones that are local run businesses, non chain, but true.
And not to say that, you know, a franchise or a chain is not a locally run or owned business, but. But they're the ones that don't have that mass financial backing of. You know, a franchise or of a, you know, huge business marketing,
Scott LeBeau: marketing,
Leighann Lovely: marketing department. And so because they don't have that backing, they struggle to ever get off the ground.
Right. And if you want to support local, you know, and sometimes you don't even realize that you're not, if you're just, you know, pointing at the, or just clicking on the first one that you see, and you think, Oh, serving Milwaukee. Okay. I, cause I would love to be able to support local. I want to support the community that I live in.
It [00:15:00] would be nice to level the playing field. And it sounds like your platform. Puts everybody on the same.
Scott LeBeau: It doesn't, it doesn't matter to us. And you know, the example we can use as your accountant, if you would, you know, do an internet search without naming names, you get 459 million accountants near us.
Now, I don't know about you, but I've evidently missed that subdivision because there is not that many. And you're right. You, even if you join a group, let's say on LinkedIn, you know, okay, local businesses, how many of those people actually reside here? You know, and people are joining things like that, you know, that's our thing.
We don't have groups or hashtags, none of that. This is all just, um, it's not very, it's not a very exciting platform to look at, but that's by design. It's designed to be simple. It's designed to be one that doesn't require that you take multiple classes, run multiple campaigns, all these different things.
It is just one where literally you can go on, you create your profile, you [00:16:00] can go back in and manage at any time, and then. You set the radius. So if I only want to do business with, you know, somebody within 10 miles of me, that's what, that's what we'll come down to. You set where you want to do your business.
If you want to do global, have Adder, you know.
Leighann Lovely: Right.
Scott LeBeau: So it's really up to your personal preferences. And we felt that there were just different ways to do things like that.
Leighann Lovely: Amazing. And that's, and that's great. I mean, and ultimately, so even if the big dogs come on there, even if Amazon or whatever it might be comes on there, they still don't have more pull than the little, Mom and pop shop candle company down the road who's saying yeah here I've got great Christmas gifts if that's what you're setting your preferences to be for whatever it might be
Scott LeBeau: right.
Yeah, exactly I mean it it just seems like that made sense and maybe I oversimplified things because But I think that we have some, we have power through [00:17:00] simplicity and what we built.
Leighann Lovely: And I think that entrepreneurs today are looking for something simple in a very complex world. Because we, we get lost in the complexities, don't we?
Scott LeBeau: Right. I think that one of the biggest challenges, and you and I've talked about this, is that we face is education. And I don't mean how to use us, but people are so conditioned, like, you know, all the social media platforms out there, you're so conditioned that I have to do this, this, this, spend this, do and all these different things when the reality is, I don't think you do, you know, a lot of their decisions, you know, changing algorithms daily, you know, how can you, how can you keep up with that?
You know, you have to pay somebody to do that, you know, Really, I think in a lot of cases, the small business customers that we hope to be able to help are ones that, um, are kind of left by the wayside, you know, by some of these people, because they're not going to generate 5, 000 a month in revenue or 1, 000 a month in revenue.
If as a business owner, I can [00:18:00] afford 100 a month, well, okay, that's one hour of work. Maybe I can get out of a consultant, you know, so I think that there's a market and there's a great opportunity here, to support us. I think an underserved, segment of the workforce, which accounts for 99. 9 percent of the business in the country.
So, so yeah,
Leighann Lovely: very interesting. So when you started coming up with this idea, you had mentioned that there was a group of you that kind of talked about this, where, I mean, how did, how did the first thing that You, I think you kind of mentioned that, that because you were in banking and you were seeing so many underserved, you know, businesses that, and that would be painful.
I mean, it would be seeing, seeing so many people that you weren't able to help. And, you know, I understand the regulations in banking. I understand, you know, that there's a certain thresholds that you have to be able to show in order for it to be a viable, deal to [00:19:00] give some, you can't just give anybody money or, you know, the.
The banking industry would, would fold. And we've, we've seen, you know, what back in the housing industry when they were handing out loans to everybody, we, we saw that happen, but, so I get that, but you know, at what point did you really decide like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to jump both feet in on this.
And what was,
Scott LeBeau: what was that like?
Leighann Lovely: What was that like? And you know, what did you have family that were like, you're crazy. Cause I know my family was like, you're crazy.
Scott LeBeau: I don't know if they thought I was crazy, but I always call it the deer in the headlight look because I remember as I started conceptualizing this and I actually met with, you know, some of our vendors that we had at the bank as well, I would sit there and I explained to him and it'd be like this pause.
And I remember one gentleman, he had his computer out and he's looking at some stuff that we'd put out there and he's just like staring at it and I'm like, is everything okay? You know, I didn't know what it was, [00:20:00] but I think, you know, and things like that at first, I was like, yeah, what do I have to do differently?
I'm like, you know what I said, it goes back to what I said about education. We, what we've built is so different than what's out there. You know that. And again, everyone's trained to think about something in a specific way. So when you throw something out there that challenges, you know, the norm. Yeah.
 It made people think I, I said that if, if 10 percent of the people that I've ever talked about this told me I was crazy and I should, you know, check myself in for a long weekend, I would have stopped years ago. But I think that, you know, the more I talk to people, but what we're trying to do, I get so much positive feedback.
In fact, through these initial conversations, you know, our core platform exists today. We already have seven enhancements that we've already gotten from conversations with people about how do I take this to the next level? How do I make this even better, more efficient for everybody involved? Um, so it's really, it's so much fun when people start to figure out what we're doing and how we're doing it.
[00:21:00] And, you know, like I mentioned before we hopped on the call today, I said, you know, our conversation today led me to go back and really kind of revisit the why what we've done, you know, and it really, it's fun, you know, to, to sit down and think about this because, so it's so easy and I'm sure I've done have an idea that you're like, that's just too much work, you know, and you're not going to go against it.
Scott LeBeau: And if you really kind of look at the people or the companies I'm going against, I think the interest they earn on their checking account per second is probably, you know, because they're so big. You know, and they, everything that they do is designed to, to increase profits. You know, they have, they have a board, a board of directors.
We don't, we have end users. My end users are more important to me than a board of directors ever will be. Because they're the ones that are going to tell us what they need. They're the ones that we're going to talk to about how we make this better for you. You know, simple things, you know, what do you want to see?
What are your pain points? I mean, all these things you can go out and research on the internet if you have the time, effort, and desire to do so. [00:22:00] But until you actually, I think, sit across from somebody, you know, And really kind of listen to them. It really doesn't hit home. And I think every business that I shut down, I did it face to face.
I had personal conversations with these people. I would be sitting there talking to things as, you know, their spouses, their children, their family came walking in. So it was very real for me. It's not something I did via, uh, which surprised some of the people I worked with. I didn't do it over the phone. I didn't do it via email or text or anything like that.
And I think that's because I think people may talk to me, understand the passion I have for this. I think they know that it would take a lot to get me off center and to stop doing what I'm doing.
Leighann Lovely: That was really well said. And clearly you do have a passion for helping people and wow, that was really, really well said.
Thanks.
Scott LeBeau: Again, this is fun for me. I mean, I, this is something I'll hit mandatory retirement age soon, but I go, this is something I'm going to do well past it because I [00:23:00] just enjoy this. I enjoy sitting down and talking to people.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Well, and you know, if If you enjoy what you do, you'll never, you know, work a day in your life.
And I think that the rise of the small business and the entrepreneurs, , you know, that we've seen, it comes out of a place of passion in so many of us, right. You know, and the amount you had said, the, the amount of new entrepreneurs since COVID has, It's insane. It's insane. Right.
Right. It is absolutely insane. And to have a platform where we are all working together and not fighting each other, that's what, that's what this is.
Scott LeBeau: Right. And you know, you think about some of the platforms that, you know, cause freelancers are the same way. They're going to grow exponentially over the next several years.
Well, you can go to some websites out there now and they'll take up to 40 percent of the money. That you earn as a freelancer, just for the, you know, connecting through there, they're going to [00:24:00] restrict, you know, you and I could be, I could be in the US, you could be across the border in Canada, have the same skill set, but because you're in Canada, some of these websites will limit what you can potentially earn, you know, our goal is really to Get people talking.
Yes.
Leighann Lovely: Let's go back to that. Say that again. I'm sorry. Go back to that.
Scott LeBeau: Some of the, some of the freelancer websites that are out there will limit how much a person can make based upon their geographic location. So in addition to taking up to 40 percent of what you're going to earn, they're also going to, they, several may restrict the max you can earn because you're in X, Y, Z country.
Leighann Lovely: Is that legal?
Scott LeBeau: It must be because these, these, these people have, uh, I'm sure a few attorneys working for him. So, yeah, but that's, that's it, you know, and so much
Leighann Lovely: is that that's a state or federal. It's got to be a federal,
Scott LeBeau: we have international rules, international
Leighann Lovely: rules because of, and so the government is [00:25:00] going to, uh, notice
Scott LeBeau: the systems themselves actually do.
They limited
Leighann Lovely: systems.
Scott LeBeau: Yes. And the key thing there is, is that as long as you treat everybody the same. There's really not much you can do
Leighann Lovely: interesting,
Scott LeBeau: but things like that. So we want to be able to say, okay, you know, we're going to do, we're going to connect you to, if you both agree that you want to go forward.
And again, your initial contact for the most part on the platform is anonymous. So nobody knows who you are. You can even communicate and ask questions on someone sends you a lead. You can go back and forth anonymously, but once you decide to go forward, then it's up to you to make your deal. I'm not going to set prices.
I'm not going to take a cut of what you do. And things like that. And the other thing that we do, and this kind of goes back to that level playing field, what we have on the platform is the ability to identify as a, let's say a woman owned business, uh, Latino, Hispanic, black owned LGBTQ. You can identify that because there's so many people that support those groups.
So you have, and these are all things that we did without talking, you know, [00:26:00] that's, those are not things that we discuss with the groups, but those are things that we just did because they seem to make sense.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Well, yeah. I mean, and there's a lot of people out there who, Choose to support and and to be anonymous that that eliminates in the beginning the some of the discrimination, some of the discrimination, or I mean, hey, I'd love to look at a couple of different offers, before I then want to get to know the person. To make sure that I know, like, and trust them.
Scott LeBeau: Right. And, and so once let's say as a seller and I get your lead, the minute that I click interested, then my profile opens up that you create that also includes any of the offers, articles, anything that you're, you posted.
But I still don't know who the, you know, the customers or the buyer is.
Leighann Lovely: So you can't be harassed by them.
Scott LeBeau: Right.
Leighann Lovely: If you choose not to move forward, they're not going to spam you.
Scott LeBeau: Right. Just like [00:27:00] if the person that gets a lead says, I'm not interested. You never know. The only, the only time on a platform, Leanne, that somebody knows who you are is when, let's say we talked before about the offers and articles.
When you send those out, they come from you. And that's, that's the time that if someone's seeing, you know, you put out your, you know, your promo for website reviews or, you know, whatever. That's when you want somebody to know who you are. They can actually contact you directly through the system, or they can call you from the phone, you know, right there.
So the ability to do that. Again, but that's promoting your business. That's getting in touch with somebody that wants to hear from you. So all these little things that we're talking about just all made sense to us.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Very interesting. I love that. And I love that you have an avenue to share a variety of different information, but only to those who are interested in that information.
Right. Like, I, I'm not, I'm not going to be interested in. A variety of stuff like that, right? I don't and the [00:28:00] other thing I don't like to have to do is manage my unsubscribe list like I don't want to have to say I'm not interested in sending out my podcast or my newsletter to people who aren't interested in it because it's more time for me to manage the unsubscribe list.
I would rather have people who are interested in the content that I have or the product that I'm offering than people who are not interested. Like, it's just more work for me.
Scott LeBeau: Right. And the good thing is, is that literally when you go into the thing and create the submit form, once you hit submit, that's it.
You don't do anything else. It literally goes out to the people directly.
Leighann Lovely: The people who are interested, the people who have, who have stated that they would be interested in learning about my podcast or my business, you know, sales rescue of learning about, you know, how they can increase whatever it might be, very interesting.
I love it. I love it.
Scott LeBeau: So think, think too about all the [00:29:00] people that have a newsletter that literally sits on a website waiting for someone not to find it. I mean, I'm not trying to be true, but it's true because again, if, if in order for someone to find it, they have to search me. And if I'm on page 1 million of a search, that's never going to happen.
This is a way, this is a way for that accountant. And it would have been a great way for you too. You could have easily gone into your system. You could have typed in accountant and look, just look for articles. You could have gone in and seen anything somebody posts.
Leighann Lovely: I am now on your platform. So yes, thank you.
Live and learn. Next time I, next time I need to find, you know, something I, I will definitely be tweaking what I am interested in seeing. So, well, Scott, if you could give advice to somebody, let's say in your position, you know, is there anything that you would do differently when you first started out?
I've
Scott LeBeau: been asked this question before and, you know, my response has always been the same. No, because I [00:30:00] can't. Every decision I made at that point was based upon the knowledge I had at that time. And so much of what I've built over this time is a result of what I've learned through that process. So, for me, I go, Failure doesn't scare me, you know, um, and that's something that I think a lot of people are like, I'm done.
I'm giving up. But again, I think that is what's going to make you stronger. That's what's going to help you identify things, you know, that you can change going forward. You can't change the past, but I can change the future. I can shape the future.
Leighann Lovely: That is spoken like a true, true through and through entrepreneur.
Let me tell you, because, and it's funny, cause I just had an interview with, um, her name is Kathy. She's the owner of yellow leaf candle company. And she said the same thing that you said is that failure doesn't scare me. It's, you know, and I love, I love hearing that because I fail. I feel probably on a daily basis at something, [00:31:00] right?
Scott LeBeau: Well, yes, my kids, it's like hourly at least, so it's all good.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Yes. My daughter and she's, and we were carving pumpkins yesterday and even during that process, she you know, Mommy, why did you do that? I failed. Yeah. Here's the thing. And this goes back again to another, another interview that I had with Ben Zhang a long time ago.
If you are, if you have to fail and we do as entrepreneurs fail forward. Learn something from that experience that can help you into the future, which is exactly what you just said, is that failure is not our enemy. It is the gateway to us learning what to do next. And that, that's beautiful, because
Scott LeBeau: Yeah, it is.
And, you know, back in the day when I've gone through interviews, you know, people, Oh, what do you tell us? And I always hate those questions. But one of the things I've told him, I said, I probably have learned more of what not to be from managers I didn't like than what to be from people I did [00:32:00] like,
Leighann Lovely: because
Scott LeBeau: I know, I know how I felt when I was handled or taken, you know, addressed in a certain way.
And I think that even, even from some probably very negative situations. I don't hold grudges. I don't hold anything because I've learned and I, and I took the positive out of a negative.
Leighann Lovely: And that is exactly the way that I have lived my life. I am the queen of walking away, assessing the situation and forgiving.
Because Holding on to negative, you know, negativity, even when you feel that you were wronged. Forgiveness and moving on and realizing that you just need to learn from even if it's a horrific manager that made you feel like crap every single day. That's for them to learn. Right. And for me to, to realize that I don't want to be like that, especially as a manager and I will learn from it, move past it, forgive and move on.
Scott LeBeau: Right. And it's hard because you can't [00:33:00] take your value system and put it into somebody else that was raised a totally different way and has different set of values. And I think, um, That's so easy to do. And I think it's much harder to do, go the other way and actually think about it and say, okay, you know, what was their perspective?
And I think if you can understand that you, you evolve, right?
Leighann Lovely: So we are coming to time, Scott, I'm going to give you your 32nd shameless pitch.
Scott LeBeau: All right. Okay. We practice this and I always forget it. It's only 30 seconds, but the short of what we do is we connect buyers and sellers directly. effortlessly with one another.
 And again, any feedback, someone wants to call, I'm just an email or a phone call away so
Leighann Lovely: awesome. And we will put your email, and your website, in the show notes. So, um, anybody who wants to reach out to you, Scott, they will be able to do that. This conversation went so fast, but it was amazing.
And, I really appreciate you coming on.
Scott LeBeau: Well, thanks to me, it's just another one of our therapy [00:34:00] sessions that we have, which is, which is always, they're always fun. But again, this is, it's all about learning. It's all about how do you get work in conjunction with people that have the same goals of success that you do.
So thank you very much, Leanne, for letting me be here.
Leighann Lovely: Yes. And again, thank you for coming on.
Scott LeBeau: Okay.

Mastering Modern Sales Leadership: Strategies for Success in a Changing World

In this riveting episode of the Love Your Sales, host Leighann Lovely delves deep into the nuances of sales leadership with her guest, Dustin Kavelaris, Wisconsin Sales Director for Office H2O. They unpack the challenges of transitioning top-performing salespeople into effective leaders, highlighting the crucial distinction between bosses and true leaders. The conversation addresses the importance of authenticity, lifelong learning, and the pitfalls of micromanaging through metrics. Dustin shares invaluable insights on maintaining a thriving sales team by fostering a culture of two-way accountability and forward-thinking leadership. Tune in to discover how modern sales leadership can drive retention, performance, and overall success in any organization.
 
Contact Dustin
Website – www.officeh2o.com
LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/dustinkavelaris
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com and Sales Rescue – www.rescuemysales.com
Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. I am so thrilled that today I am joined by Dustin Cavallaris. Uh, Dustin is a Wisconsin sales director for Office H2O, A leader in modern purified drinking water and commercial ice equipment for businesses. He is an established sales and people leader for nearly 20 years.
He's led sales divisions in direct B2C, [00:02:00] B2B, indirect channel management, and has navigated a plethora of sales leader Ship roles for small privately held companies up through publicly traded fortune 50 companies. He's completed sales coursework through the Northwestern Kellogg Executive Education and is committed to lifelong learning.
I love that. Thank you so much, Dustin, for joining me today. I look forward to this conversation.
Dustin Kavelaris: Thank you so much for having me. I couldn't be more thrilled to talk about All the things that you cover here.
Leighann Lovely: Yes, I'm a complete nerd. I am a lifelong learner as well. I love the opportunity that I get to have people come on and educate me.
It's really, you know, uh, a roundabout way of, of getting people on the hot seat and being able to pick their brain. Right. So, so tell me, a little bit about your, uh, experience, your background and a high level of, you know, kind of Being that leader, that sales leader [00:03:00] that, you know, and what you do and kind of on a daily basis.
Dustin Kavelaris: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I, I started, you know, I think from 16 years old had been in some sales centric capacity and, so through college, uh, was my first true kind of sales, you know, high activity sales gig. And I was, I started in telecom, ended up working my way up through from a standard sales consultant up through a regional sales manager.
And, you know, the epiphany I had, I don't know, it was probably 2007, you know, I had a really tough, I'm going to call him a boss to work for. And I, I distinguish boss and leader because I think there's such a interesting dynamic between those two phrases. Um, I don't, I don't let my teams today call me boss.
Cause you know, the behaviors between the two are just very different. But I just remember thinking to myself, man, you know, I, I love the impact that leaders have had a tough boss to work for, and just kind of vowed that, [00:04:00] you know, if I got into leadership, I wanted to be, you know, the leader that I didn't have at that time.
And so, yeah, I spent, uh, you know, a whole lot of years, 16 years in telecom kind of working my way up through the corporate life, so to speak, Big corporate merger happened and exited that during COVID, uh, went back to kind of a medium sized privately held company and then to an even smaller company.
And so I've been through the whole gamut of, you know, company sizes and dynamic of teams and different channels and all along the way, you know, just the experience in the different people you interact with, the different type of teams, the reoccurring theme never changes on what people look for in a, company.
In a leader and particularly call it modern day leadership, but just it has evolved and is evolving quickly. And just, there's a lot of companies that are stuck in a position that don't think they've got a good pulse on this. So I'm excited to talk more about kind of what that means from my vantage point.
Leighann Lovely: [00:05:00] Very interesting. So, and I love, I love when people have that multifaceted experience of working for. The large private, you know, the large companies, that are, the privately held, the publicly, I think that it gives that, and I've had that experience as well, where, you know, you're working for a privately held, decent sized organization.
And then you go into a monster size organization that's publicly traded, because there is a completely different, you know, feel. to it. Or there can be, there can be a completely different feel to it. Um, but I, I love those backgrounds when, when you, when you're able to talk to somebody and they go, Oh yeah, yeah.
So I've, I've been able to experience a variety of different environments and you can pick out the things that you directly like immediately. and see the trends of what doesn't work really [00:06:00] quickly.
Dustin Kavelaris: Absolutely. And, and the dynamics are very different, you know, I mean, night and day. And so I think there are folks who right, wrong and different.
They've either kind of stayed in one place or they've targeted similar sized companies. And you, when you, in my opinion, when you go to publicly traded companies, particularly big ones and very tall organizations, and there's Layers of red tape, and there's, you know, a ton of kind of call it company politics for lack of a better term to navigate those.
You know that the skill sets to work through that as a leader and have your team successful. It's very different than when, you know, you can just walk right up to a president, you know, at a small company and say, Something's not working here. Can we fix this? So yeah, very different. And, you know, but like I said earlier, the, the thing that never changes though, is what people need to be successful.
And, and yeah, it's experiences. , it's been very, uh, humbling, you know, to be able to talk, you know, talk about those different experiences.
Leighann Lovely: Right. [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah. And I, I remember just even, and I want to get back to that, what people need In order to be successful, but for a second, I just want to reminisce here for, for two seconds.
You know, I remember my days of like, I want to go to this networking meeting and happening to get approval for like a 25 fee. Like, it's like, it's like, why do I have to fight so hard to get, you know, approval to go and do my job versus that small company where it's like, they just hand you a credit card and go, yeah.
Here you go, like go out and, meet people, have lunches, you know, and, and spend money. And you're like, Oh, okay, I can do that. And you're like, wait, but you're a small company. Like, do I have a budget? And they're like, just don't spend that much. Like if, if it gets up, talk to you and you're like, seriously, yeah, you have a monster company, like a monster size.
publicly million billion dollar company that's [00:08:00] like, you have to go through, jump through hoops to spend 25 at a networking event. And you're like, what is going on? Like, why is it so hard to do my job? Sorry. Okay. Anyways, I digress. So. Right. I'm just, I'm just thinking, and again, you know, I had that same, like, because I worked at a very large publicly traded company and while there were some perks that were amazing, um, like, because once you did get approval, you could get approvals for some larger budgeted items because they had, and the training, you know, there were some perks of like, they would send you for training and they had a budget of 5, 000 where, you know, You know, they would actually send you out of state for some really great, amazing training programs.
But it took six months to a year where they finally came back and they're like, yeah, we've got this much of a budget. It's like, okay, great. I asked for that a year ago, but you know, it's great that it's finally been approved. , you know, things just, okay, [00:09:00] so let's talk about the thing that's consistent among, you know, what people, what salespeople need.
To be successful, that's kind of that consistency throughout any organization.
Dustin Kavelaris: Yeah. Well, you know, I think regardless of your title and role, I know this is, it tends to be a sales centric conversation and, you know, leadership is its own form of sales because you're, you know, you're kind of selling to everyone around you about.
The value proposition you bring to the table, but let's start with, uh, kind of how we got here to begin with and some considerations of, you know, if you're in a position right now where you're asking yourself, like, do I have an effective sales organization? Is my entire company, you know, a well tuned machine, you know, the, the sales organization portion of that, I think, you know, I'm probably biased here, of course, being in, in sales and leadership, but you know, the [00:10:00] revenue engine for a company.
You know, every, every department is important, not discrediting that, but the revenue engine, you know, if, if that nozzle or, you know, or faucet gets turned off, it causes a really difficult domino effect. Uh, that's tough to navigate. And that downward spiral that happens when, you know, sales and revenue is down, it impacts everyone.
And so keeping this portion of the company in a healthy place. Yeah, I'd argue it's pretty important. So, you know, when you're looking at your sales organization leadership, , obviously, like, do you feel that you have modern leadership? And like, what's the litmus test on, you know, what that means? So you start with just, you know, what's the, You know, what's the growth trajectory and what's the attrition look like, you know, do you keep people then, you know, the old saying of, you know, people don't leave companies, they leave poor leaders.
 I, you know, there's definitely some truth to that.
Dustin Kavelaris: So the question is like, what do people need? Like if you're, if you're [00:11:00] new in sales, you're a tenured person in sales, like what do you need from leadership today? And the things that I think people don't get right. in leadership is, is people who understand what the current either new or older generation need and being a chameleon for different people.
And so the, some of the consistent things that I see that, you know, companies really need to take a hard look at is, do you have a leader who is a lifelong learner? And I, you know, I say that because lifelong learning to me or a lack there of is either a overconfidence that you got it all together. Or a just poor self awareness that you set the tone of making small increments of bettering yourself and your people around you every single day.
So, you know, when I've gone into organizations and I've looked at, you know, what's the environment like here, one of the first things I look for is the people around here, [00:12:00] are they pursuing growth mindsets and just getting better at things? Do you, to your earlier point about, you know, expenses being approved?
One point in time I had asked a district manager of mine, I'm like, you know, I've got this guy who wants to, you know, improve. He wants to move up the chain. He wants to become a better leader. There's a couple of books I'd like him to read. And it was like, this is an investment, right? In his professional development and getting a 20 book approved was like a huge hassle.
Yet companies spend an enormous amount of payroll, pulling people into meaningless meetings. You're quantifying the value of a meeting, but you pull a bunch of leaders into one and you got an absurd amount of payroll to talk about the business rather than doing the business. So, yeah, I mean, kind of the first thing for me is just what's the, what's the vibe on just general, are people working hard to get better at leadership or skill sets?
And [00:13:00] so if you don't have a dedicated budget, one of the, I was at a company called Penta Technologies and it was a construction, a small construction software company, and I'll tell you, kind of going the extreme end of this, um, my performance reviews there, part of my annual bonus was predicated on the.
Plan I put together on how I was going to just get better at being a leader. It was, what was I going to do to evolve? And so I had to build a plan and say, look, here are the things I want to do to get better as a leader contributor. It wasn't about sales results. It was about professional development and growth.
And that was like, you know, we're not going to pay you if you're not. Working hard to get better. And I'd love to be in a fly on the wall, you know, walk into some boardrooms or some, you know, senior leadership and say, look, can we carve out a budget or put a bonus tied to people just growing their capabilities as a contributor?
And I mean, you'd probably see a lot of eye rolls. Like we don't have a budget for that. It's [00:14:00] like, all right. So that's probably a long winded answer of, you know, are people getting better?
Leighann Lovely: It's the same concept of, you know, If it's not broken, don't fix it. Well, wait a second. Or the whole, well, we've been doing it this way forever and it, and it works.
Well, great. But everything around you is changing. You want to stay stagnant, but go peek outside because the world is not staying stagnant and you're going to be archaic. And everything around you is going to be all shiny and new and eventually people are just going to walk past you because you're not shifting and moving and growing with the times.
You're, you're going to be selling, you know, the way that people did 10 years ago, which is no longer going to be kosher with the way that people are buying. If that's how you want to do it, fine, like, but you're, you're going to be obsolete. That's what it [00:15:00] comes down to. If you want your team to never grow, expand, learn.
I mean, just, just think, just think from five years ago, the way that we, as Individuals now meet each other. Like I'm not, I, half the time I'm having a sales call. The first time I meet somebody is exactly how we're talking right now. That was not how I started, you know, five years ago. My first meeting was, okay, what's your address?
Where am I coming? Is there any special instructions on parking? Because I was meeting a lot of manufacturing companies at that time. A ton of them. And you did not meet. You know, and even today, if I'm talking to a manufacturing company, I still ask, do you want me to come in? Because there's still some manufacturing companies that are not up on, you know, a ton of zoom.
Majority of them have now shifted. And they're like, no, we can just meet via zoom. And I was like, oh, okay, wow. We're like the entire [00:16:00] world is now, you know, now zoom or teams or Google or pick your platform. Like it's shifted. And here's about the technology. I'm talking about these complete body language. I can no longer, this has been a learning curve.
I, as a sales person, I was taught when you walk in a room with somebody, read how they choose their chair, see how they sit, watch their body language. These are all different types of buying signs throughout a sales meeting. Well, you no longer have that luxury. You've got to learn a completely different way.
understanding buying signs now. So that's been a learning curve. Now I'm, I'm listening to, you know,. Now I'm listening to fluctuations in their voice, the tone, the [00:17:00] pauses. I mean, these are all things that as a salesperson, that if I'm meeting somebody via Zoom for the first time, it's completely different. I've had to learn a new skill set on, you know, are they putting their eyes up because they're interested, like, and, and a lot of people who are non salespeople don't understand Like, these are all things that throughout my career, I've, I've become hypersensitive to, like, and I'm sure you, you know, Dustin, you too, like, if somebody, you know, I, I remember back in the early days, if somebody would cross their arms and lean completely back in their chair, it was like, oh, crap, I really got to get this person back engaged.
Because these, you know, again, these are things that it's like, are they leaning in? Are they lean? But now it's a, it's a whole new world. It's a whole new world. Now again, if, if I get somebody in person [00:18:00] to have that first discovery, it's like, Oh God, okay, now I'm back in my comfort zone. Like this is the way that I grew up in sales.
Dustin Kavelaris: Yeah, you brought up some amazing points because, you know, just when you apply, you know, kind of all the technology, the different ways people purchase now, um, that the general capability of a salesperson has to, it's more robust. And you, you know, sales is a performance metric, you know, you, while you can kind of teach things, there are some Intangibles that top salespeople do that you, I don't think you can teach and, and navigating that today, you know, one of the, one of the other kind of elements that, you know, I think is both true for salespeople, but particularly in sales leadership too, is, you know, how do you bring authenticity to the mix?
And so we did this thing where everything was in person back in the day, back in the day, you know, what might mean to different people. You know, but I remember talking to my parents who was in sales and, you know, everything was they'd be on the road and like you [00:19:00] didn't, you didn't do stuff like this, you know, and so everything was a lot of human interaction.
And now there's a lot of different ways, you know, that opened up doors to be able to sell, you know, at a broader scale, but, you know, less direct human interaction. Some people aren't good with zoom. And so how do you bring authenticity? I think one of the other things that are prominent today that not enough people talk about is.
Dustin Kavelaris: If you want to lead a sales organization and it really kind of, I guess any organization for that matter is, you know, authenticity and leadership to me is the same as prospects are really good at knowing if you're, you know, kind of full of crap. You know, if there's that fake rapport. You know, and they can see right through it, you know, see, they see the motive behind, you know, what you're trying to accomplish.
And so there's a level of authenticity from prospect to salesperson, as there is sales leader to salesperson or team or insert leader, right. And kind of direct report. And so how do you, you know, I guess, how do you [00:20:00] navigate that? How do you teach authenticity and, you know, some things that people can do today to, Again, the litmus test is if I was a VP of sales, and I wanted to see if my director of sales was an effective leader, one of the first things I would do is I would, you know, I'd go out and survey my field team and say, you know, where's your confidence level and do either a skip lower review or something to see is.
Salespeople want to know that their boss can also do their job, that they're credible and that they'll roll their sleeves and get their arms dirty. Or when a salesperson brings an issue that their direct leader is going to go, go to battle for them and really have their back. And look, salespeople are inherently pretty good, you know, all things considering at kind of reading the room, at least, right.
That's part of being in sales is reading the room and body language and those. And if. They lose confidence that their direct leaders can [00:21:00] understand their true barriers to their success. And they're not just looking at some goofy dashboard that says all these metrics, which is a whole nother topic around, you know, kind of effective modern leadership is the metric topic, which, you know, we can certainly touch on, but yeah, the authenticity thing.
And can you do what your people do? Do you truly understand that? You know, if I want to dig into a failing sales organization, I would first go, you know, dig in, you know, what are, what's the field crew really struggling with and does their direct leader understand the dynamics and the difficulty? And are they blocking and tackling and helping pull revenue forward?
Not just saying, Oh man, let's work on some more activity and, you know, call it a, I'll call it a win. Try to, you know,
Leighann Lovely: you bring up an amazing point and here's, here's where there's, there's two things that I want to. So one, the quickest way to kill a salesperson, a high performing salesperson, is make them a manager.
However, that [00:22:00] being said, I don't want to work for a manager who hasn't walked in my shoes, who doesn't, who's never been a salesperson, because if they don't, if they've never experienced what it's like to Be out there and do the grind, make the calls, put the work in. They don't understand. What it's like to go through the pains of the pains of being a salesperson.
However, that being said, I go back to what I just said, the quickest way to kill a top producing salesperson is to say, Hey, you should be a manager.
Dustin Kavelaris: Amen. And yeah,
Leighann Lovely: right, right. So there's, there's that, you know, the chicken and the egg kind of situation of, well, oh crap. So you have, so an organization has to be wildly selective and careful and understand that.
Not every sales, not [00:23:00] every top producing salesperson, just because they're an amazing salesperson is meant to be a leader. And they may not even know that they're not meant to be a leader. And so many times I hear of like, Oh, I was promoted to a manager and it just didn't work out. And instead of that organization saying to that person, like, do you think that maybe.
It would be better for you to just kind of shift back into producing. Do you want to do that? And have that person be given the option of, you know what? Yeah, I, I was better at that than I am as a leader. They just, they'll just fire them and be like, yeah, this isn't working out. Sorry. You're not meeting.
And then they get fired and it's like, well, and sometimes that person got pushed into managing. In my career, I, I turned down multiple management roles. My, I was a top producer and they kept coming. We want you to be a manager. We want you [00:24:00] to, we want you to mentor everybody else. And I was like, no. I'm a producer and me alone and then they were like, okay, just mentor, just, you just, you know, just help the other team understand what your process is.
Like, I just want to produce. They see that that other person. Is like really doing a great job and they're like, how can we get this person to teach the other people what you're doing? And it's like, just you want to keep that really high producing person, like, still producing at a high level, leave them alone.
Dustin Kavelaris: I don't think you could have phrased that better.
Dustin Kavelaris: It is an absolute predicament. And that's why I think. really, really highly effective sales leaders. They're very difficult to find because it's a, it's a breed between being a high impact people leader and also being capable to understand the ins and outs of being an effective.
Salesperson and how to speak that language, high performing salespeople, they want the tools and they want a leader who will just get out of [00:25:00] their way and that when they come to the problem, they'll fight fiercely for them. And too often, yeah, the wrong people get promoted because they think that's the path.
And so how do you avoid that? Well, you know, it's gonna be like, well, geez, you know, if there can do good in sales, like, why can't they just help everyone do that? Well, it's like, well, If, if you use some of the tools that help assess people's personality styles and their dynamics, there's a couple of tools out there.
A lot of people do desk or predictive index and other things like that, but kind of tell you if you're one of those high performing sales people, but probably won't be great as a people leader. That's a good, good direct mechanism to try to figure that out. , we use predictive index at our, my current company and our, my last one too.
And there's some really great things that come from that. I'm getting kind of the right people on the right seat in the bus. Right. Uh, so yeah, I just couldn't agree more. And yeah, that's certainly why I think there are some sales organizations that they, they feel the momentum because the high performing sales guy was.
[00:26:00] driving revenue to a good place. And then what happens? We, we shifted him into a leadership role and, and then there's some stagnation or even decline. It's like, well, you know, the math is actually pretty easy. Right. So you know, you mentioned one other thing too, around what happens to a person that's wrongly promoted and it's, it's actually, you know, You said, you know, like, let's talk to them and say, look, we should maybe shift back into an individual contributor role.
That conversation to me is also where a lot of leadership fails. They can't exercise kind of radical candor. And there's a very fine line with being able to be very direct and candid with teams and knowing that, look, we're going to have a hard conversation. And it comes from a good place, but there's a delivery mechanism there.
And so, you know, effective communication and being a good leader, which comes from radical candor, being able to, I can forecast what my team needs, I'm out ahead of them and I can dissipate that. I can support them on the sales [00:27:00] side. I can navigate the leadership conversations. And it's a, it's a very tricky role to do it well, because.
Yeah, there's a lot of different skill sets needed. And when, you know, one of those portions fail, it just throws a wrench in your whole sales engine. You either knock it with a need or, you know, you lose people and then it starts the process over and depending upon your sales cycle, I mean, you lose a good person and a book of business, you know, goes stale.
Jeez. I mean, it could be quarters worth of revenue that it takes to recover from that.
Leighann Lovely: Right. It's, it's difficult when. People avoid hard conversations. But here's the thing. If you're planning on being a leader, you're planning, planning on running a business, you're, you're planning on managing people.
It's part of the job. It's your, you have to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. That's part of the job. There are going to be days that you have really hard, bad, [00:28:00] Shitty conversations and people are going to walk away all feeling bad about it. And here's something that's really important. If you are a leader and you enjoy those conversations, there's a problem.
If you are a leader and you enjoy firing people, that's a problem. It shouldn't be something that you enjoy doing. It's, it's a necessary evil, but if you start to enjoy it, that's a problem. And, and I say that, I say that because
people. Yes, sometimes deserve to be fired, but you are you are causing trauma to a human being and if You start to enjoy that then, then, yeah, there's, there's an issue with that, but sometimes it needs to be done.
Dustin Kavelaris: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, for those who maybe aren't, you said, geez, am I good at, you know, being candid with people, you know, I, you need to go seek feedback and that's where, you know, kind of the lifelong learning, you know, feedback is a [00:29:00] gift.
 Something else I like around feedback is actually, you know, salespeople don't like to look back a long ways and get a bunch of, Feedback about kind of six months ago in a sales world feels like an absolute eternity. So if you have bi annual reviews or you've got a, you know, individual, you know, Improvement plan or performance plan, or, you know, some type of touch point to improve your circumstances, you know, a leader's got to look at, you know, the lens of, all right, if I'm a top performing salespeople, or I'm going to treat them like the capabilities they have, you can't go back to these ancient conversations, you need to be looking forward around, I'm going to give some evidence around what I observe, let's have some two way feedback, be able to apply that to how do you navigate the next steps here, I always tell people, you know, to me,
Dustin Kavelaris: The best leaders, what they do is they take complex problems and break them down into bite size, simple actions.
And some people just don't have the brain or the natural thought process. I'm like, how do I take [00:30:00] all this messy stuff? What feels like a insurmountable amount of work or difficulty or, you know, a tough sales cycle or these big personalities to deal with. And like, how do you break that down and navigate that?
And. Those are the things that actually move deals forward. Those are the things that keep people in your organization. And if they lose confidence that you can't help them with that in times they need it, then they're going to look around for, you know, people take the path of least resistance. So yeah, I mean, some excellent, you know, considerations there on, you know, what people need.
Leighann Lovely: So as we wrap up our conversation, what, what is the, what is the greatest advice that you would give? To, you know, a new leader coming up, you know, or somebody who's looking to become a leader in sales. What advice would you give to them?
Dustin Kavelaris: Man, I think, a lot of things, uh, I'd like to share cause it is a tough role, [00:31:00] but you know, one of the things that I was.
I always would tell as I was coaching new leaders in the organizations I worked at or someone who said, I want to move into leadership or I want to get better at this is, you know, you, you've got to be able to sit down and look things very empirically, you know, there's emotion and tied to things you, you deal with a lot.
Dustin Kavelaris: Leading people is inherently hard. It's, you know, some people do it more naturally, right. Cause they're just kind of bred for that. And, or they're just committed to it. But, you know, one of the things I would say is, you know, the best thing you can do is is instill two way accountability. This is that I'm gonna go back to that boss leader thing.
Bosses. It's very one way accountability. I'm going to look at results and address accordingly. It's not a reflection of did I give you the tools? Am I the one creating a bottleneck in my team's success? And so being empirical about like what you bring to [00:32:00] the table, where you add value. And the only way to do that is to go solicit candid feedback in two way accountability.
And it had that extremely comfortable. I, when I meet a new, like I've taken over a lot of sales teams. And one of the first things I tell people is look, one of the things I need from you is. To know anything I communicate to you comes from a good place. I'm invested in your success. But if there's ever a point where you feel I'm not bringing to you the value you need, I need you to walk in my office.
And I don't care what language you use. I don't care how you say it. But just walk in my office and tell me specifically where I dropped the ball. I won't be upset. I won't be, you know, emotional about it, just bring the evidence, you know, so we can speak in facts and there's some opinion there, but it eases the tension and the relationship tends to get off on a really good [00:33:00] start when people know that there's two way accountability and that there's a manager or a leader in the organization that says, I'm humble enough.
I can swallow my pride and ego. My title is not what's important. It's about the greater success. You got to embrace that general mentality. And if not, you're going to fail. People are going to leave. They're not going to work for crappy people anymore. This is not happening too many options. I can work remote.
I can go somewhere else. Job hopping is a thing I can go negotiate for money, you know, like all these reasons people have to leave and you need to be the reason that they want to stay. So, like, if you're not looking inward, you're going to have real problems looking outward, you know,
Leighann Lovely: the greatest leader leads as a servant, as a servant's heart and, and they are looking at.
Lifting their people up, not being the, the overlord of numbers and matrix. And, um, they are literally there to serve their team as a conduit to [00:34:00] get them everything they need to be successful. And if they're dropping the ball in any way, they need to be able to look at themselves and say, okay, maybe I'm not doing the best that I can do today and be willing to self improve.
 I grew up with a dad who is, you know, sales leader of, of sometimes a team of up to 65 people at any given time. That is a lot of salespeople, a lot of different personalities. Um, and I, you know, he, was on the phone at any, he, led a real estate team. So they were working all, all the time, right?
You know, real estate, any given time, most of the calls that I would hear when I was a kid, he wasn't talking about. It was usually more personal, like, I'm sorry to hear that that's going on. You know, how can I help you? And it's like, he literally was there kind of like a dad to all of his, to all of his team, just to help.[00:35:00]
that person through whatever they needed, when they needed it to help them. And it's funny when he retired, it was during the COVID, you know, during COVID he said, you know, let's not do a party. That's that would be too much of a mess to try to organize and blah. He asked for everybody to send him a card.
And I read some of these and it was insane how most of the people he led thought of him as a friend as a, almost a father figure of most of them saying, thank you for helping me create a career. And that is where I learned most of understanding of what a leader was supposed to be. They're not supposed to be somebody who is stopping you or making it more difficult for you to do your job, or somebody who sits down with you once a quarter [00:36:00] and says, now I've reviewed your matrix.
You are, are, are a hundred calls short of where you're supposed to be on your cold calls. Like that, like, oh my gosh. If that's how you're managing your team, you're not going to have one. And I, I remember interviewing for a job and they're like, we just want to set the expectations. We require 500 cold calls a week.
We require X amount of appointments a week. And we require, and I went, , yeah, I'm not interested. Like if this is a matrix driven job, I'm not interested. I am way beyond that as a salesperson. I, my relationships that I have and that I can bring to the table are worth way more than you telling me that I need to make 500, 500 cold calls a week.
And like, like, who, who,
Dustin Kavelaris: I'm chuckling because the, you know, it's, it's literally, [00:37:00] there's a, there's a great guy that I follow since Brian Burns, um, he talks about the brutal truth around sales and leadership. It's got, you know, he makes fun of this exact topic, , just the number of people in these leadership roles that they managed to dashboards and activity rather than capability and you know, who's actually producing and the amount of unnecessary work.
Poor leaders make good salespeople do administratively or just, uh, you know, kind of CYA so that when they go to present to their, you know, their leadership, you know, here's, here's the shiny presentation and let me show you everything we're doing rather than working on things that actually produce revenue and giving people autonomy to leverage their organic and excellent skill sets and personalities and networks.
Yeah, it's, I just. The spiral effect of managing to activity, it just top sales people will not put up with it.
Leighann Lovely: No, I mean,
Dustin Kavelaris: it's, it's pretty wild how many companies [00:38:00] still think that they can manage that way. It's, it's insane.
Leighann Lovely: No, I w I wouldn't even, I mean, even back, this was years ago, even back then I was like, that's, that's not how I sell.
Like, yes, I will do the activity, but I'm not going to sell that way. Like that's not how I, if you, if you're going to manage me that way, like, no, thanks, but anyways, we are coming to time. And right now, this is Dustin, the opportunity for you to give your 30 seconds, shameless pitch, go at it. Anything. I mean, you can, anything you want, 30 seconds, shameless pitch.
Dustin Kavelaris: Yeah, I'll, I'll take a plug. Yeah. So, you know, look, I'm a big, uh, you know, relationship guy. And so, you know, if you're in the greater Milwaukee market, , you know, our company office H2O, we're, we're the quintessential kind of two guys in a garage story. And now the largest privately held, uh, company, we do purified drink and water and ice systems for businesses.
And, and look, if, if you're open to connecting, I'm a big fan of kind of learning how the world goes around. Yeah. [00:39:00] And my favorite part is learning about, you know, other companies and, and the people. And so, um, I'd love to connect, you know, you certainly find me on LinkedIn, , or you can find me on officeh2o.
com and tell you more about how we, uh, call it the low hanging fruit to health, wellness, sustainability in your organization. Awesome.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. And Dustin's LinkedIn and, his, where you can connect with him will be in the show notes. So yeah, reach out to him, but, um, again, Dustin, this has been an amazing conversation.
I really appreciate you joining me today.
Dustin Kavelaris: No, thank you for, hosting such a great podcast.
 

Overcoming Fear: Standing Out in a Crowded Market

Cathy Blachowski shares her journey into the competitive world of candle making, highlighting her fear of blending in with numerous vendors on platforms like Etsy. She emphasizes the importance of differentiation and staying true to her unique product, targeting individuals who truly appreciate her craftsmanship. Cathy’s courage to face failure head-on is central to her approach, enabling her to take bold steps in her business without the fear of setbacks. Her story is an inspiring testament to the resilience needed to carve out a niche in a crowded market. Join us to hear more about her path to creating a standout candle business.
 
Contact Cathy
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-blachowski-39736355/
Website - www.yellowleafcandlecompany.com
Email - cathy.blachowski@gmail.com
 
Special Thank you to our Sponsors – Genhead – www.genhead.com and Sales Rescue – www.rescuemysales.com
Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/
The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489
 
Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of love your sales. I am so thrilled today. I am joined by Cathy Blachowski.
She is an entrepreneur and owner of Yellow Leaf Candle Company, an e commerce store. And I would love, you know, Kathy, for you to tell us a little bit more about, , you know, what Yellow Leaf Candle Company is and does.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, so basically I created this company last year, um, based on my own health history.
So for years I've been suffering [00:02:00] from, chronic migraines, uh, severe sinus pressure, allergies, asthma, and was no longer able to breathe. Burn store-bought candles in my house. So I started making them myself for about five years and then realized that there are a lot of people out there that have the same sensitivities and struggles I do.
So I decided to bring them to the world in 2023, and now I am out there on the website, um, and I'm going out to fairs and craft. Any kind of expo I can get my hands on to share, , these clean burning eco friendly candles that don't irritate all the things, , that I've got going on with myself.
Leighann Lovely: Wow. So explain how that, how, cause I suffer from horrible allergies year round.
So explain to me how these candles work. don't affect, [00:03:00] you know, us who have the hose, those irritants, especially in the house. And, you know, we all bring these things into the home. We're like, Oh, it's, it smells great. It, it's awesome. But yeah, that's a real thing.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah. So I realized that there's a bunch of candles that big box stores sell and they use the cheapest kind of wax that they can find.
So they can mass produce it. And the wax burns very fast. And the scent goes almost away immediately. And not only are you not getting the full effect of that candle, but you're not getting the full effect of how it burns to like the wicks that they use are cheap wicks. Um, I've noticed when you move furniture around, after you've lit a candle for years, that there's soot on your walls, there's soot on your ceilings and just think about what you're breathing in.
Like that. What's on your walls is in your lungs, and no wonder I was having asthma attacks every [00:04:00] single time. Um, it's, it's one of those things where you just don't realize what's the cause until you stop doing it. And then you're like, wow, like there is a better way that you can do this. So I did a ton of research on what is the cleanest, most combination of a burning candle that you can get.
So I found the soy wax. I found, you know, self trimming cotton wicks that don't create that mushroom, that the black that builds up inside the candles and goes everywhere. I mean, it was just disgusting to blow my nose after having a. A candle lit for three hours, like nobody should have to see soot coming out of your nose.
It, it terrified me, but it also woke me up to say, now there's something that I can do about it.
Leighann Lovely: Wow. , you've just blown my mind because I've never, you know, And again, yeah, I, when I go and sit out at a, you know, a fire pit outside, you go inside and you blow your nose and you're like, [00:05:00] Oh, that's disgusting.
But you would, you expect that when you're sitting by an open burning fire and you're throwing God knows what kind of wood on it. But you're right in your home. You want, everybody wants to be able to occasion, especially around the holidays. And, you know, you have your holiday sense, you have your Christmas, your Thanksgiving, whatever sense you want to be able to enjoy that.
But you, so, okay. So this came out of a personal journey.
Cathy Blachowski: Yep. So very long one. Let me tell you, I did a lot of testing with a lot of different things and I noticed, you know, that dyes can, you know, sometimes hinder the way that that burns too. So my candles have no dyes in it. There are no carcinogens in it.
I only use essential oils or certified clean, um, fragrance oils. So it's one of those things that you really have to do a lot of research with. [00:06:00] Otherwise, you know, you could go through it like me who did a lot of testing and, um, realize that there are so many ways to do it wrong. But when you finally find that money combination, it's like finally I found it.
I feel really good about this. I mean, I was giving hundreds of candles away to people and say like, Hey, burn this. Let me know what you think. And it was a lot of people who suffer from the same things I do, especially migraines and stress headaches and everything like that, because those scents can be so overpowering.
And I didn't, I didn't want to put that on somebody's plate either. So, lot of testing, lot of trial and error.
Leighann Lovely: And that's what that's what it's about to write getting the proper product in front of people that not only has come from a passion project of your own of being able to still enjoy burning a candle.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah. Things that you don't realize you've missed it until you've missed it, you know, like [00:07:00] I, it was, there were so many years that have gone by that I'm like, man, I really wish I just had something crackling right now, you know, not all of us have fireplaces and not all of us have fire pits in our backyard.
So we don't get that opportunity to be able to have that experience somewhere else. So it was nice for me to find that and bring that back into the house, even with cats. And even with a young child, you know, years ago, now my daughter's 21, it's not really an issue. She's not knocking over stuff, but you know, two cats run around the house, you know, dogs wag their tails, things fly, like it happens.
So you got to make sure that you have something that's still safe, um, that if something were to happen and something got knocked over, it blows out immediately. It's not going to set your house on fire.
Leighann Lovely: Wow. Yeah. Amazing. So let's talk about the sense. Where, where do you come up with the, all of the different eco friendly or the essential oils and all of these different scents that are, I mean, do you create them on your [00:08:00] own?
Do you, do you find people who create the scents?
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, it's kind of a combination of both. , I find what I'm, what I do is I do a lot of research into what other people are selling. So I know kind of what's out there and what other people are looking for. Um, so I would say probably maybe 40 to 45 percent of my assortment are those, you know, typical vanilla, lavender, eucalyptus, you know, I'm looking for those, Looking for those that people are going to want to buy no matter where you go.
But then I'm also looking for the one offs, the ones that you're like, really, did she just do that? Uh, yeah, I did. , I do love creating really weird combinations of things. One of them that was a happy mistake was a bourbon vanilla. I know it, it was a really happy mistake. I was doing a bourbon coffee and I was doing a vanilla at the same time.
And I Poured the bourbon in the wrong pot. And I was like, Oh, and then I was, well, wait, that's [00:09:00] actually not that bad. So I ended up keeping it. And it's actually one of my best sellers right now.
Leighann Lovely: Really a happy mistakes become, become one of the best sellers. Well, who doesn't love bourbon? Who doesn't love bourbon?
I
Cathy Blachowski: know the smell is so sweet. And with the coffee, you know, it, it enhances the coffee in the bitter and the, the, um, kind of like thicker way, but in the vanilla, it makes it a little sweeter. it changes it just a little bit. So it's funny how you can use bourbon in a couple of different ways. I'm probably not going to use it in any other way, because I think I found the two that work really, really well.
 But I do get a lot of suggestions from people too. So, um, I've worked with a couple of people who are like, Hey, I really like this, is this something you can do? Or I smelled this somewhere. I'm just wondering if you could do that. And I love getting those requests because it just helps me become a better candle maker, but it allows me to have the size assortment that I [00:10:00] have.
So it's kind of getting out of hand right now. Um, I do have quite a few out there, but I love being the person who you can go to and say, can you make this? And I can be like, I will find a way.
Leighann Lovely: So speaking of that, can you make this? So, you know, you take suggestions from people. You're if it sounds like you're an evolving entrepreneur who's open to new ideas.
So let's, let's talk a little bit. How did you start on the sales side as a brand new, I'm making candles. I want to put myself out there. Where did you start?
Cathy Blachowski: Probably in the wrong places, to be honest. never really thought that. This was going to go as far as it has so far, and I've so much further to go, but basically I was just kind of like talking to people and say, Hey, what are you guys doing?
Or have you gone to a craft show lately? Or do you know of anybody who is putting on a show that needs somebody that has candles? And I just kind of was doing a lot of [00:11:00] asking around. I didn't really know where to begin. So I was doing a lot of online searches for craft fairs and, um, Started actually with Coffeeville in Jackson last November was my first official fair that I did.
 And it was so nice to just be able to set up a booth and be like, okay, we're just going to wing it. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to fake it till I make it. And it's going to be amazing. And I have evolved since. So like my first booths were very minimalist. And now again, I've You know, explored other options of different way of designing my booths.
So they, you know, as the product expands, you know, my booth expands with it. So it was a lot of just talking to a lot of different people. And fortunately I'm in a lot of networking groups that let, it really allows me to reach a lot of people to ask these questions. And I've been very glad and lucky to have a bunch of mentors be able to help me on this journey as well.
Leighann Lovely: That's amazing. And so, and it sounds like [00:12:00] you've, you've leaned in to the expertise of those who have, you know, so not to reinvent the entire wheel, but to, you know, go to those who kind of know, have been there to ask for that. That's, that's, that's amazing. One of the key things to, you know, to understanding how to grow, where to go, how to start, what to do, navigating that, that unknown world of entrepreneurship and sales and getting your product out there.
So do you do special orders, like say a Christmas order or a company wants to use your product to gift all of their employees, or do you do that type of thing?
Cathy Blachowski: I sure do. I've actually gotten a lot of requests from realtors, um, for their closing gifts for, you know, when they sell a house, I've worked with mortgage lenders for the same reason, once their loan is secure, you know, there's gifts with that [00:13:00] I've done some bridal parties.
 So if the, you know, whoever's showing like having a bridal shower or something, that they can give out those types of gifts too, um, and all customizable. So it's not like you just have to have one of every, you know, one specific scent for everybody. It's like, why don't you tell me what you're looking for?
Or if you don't know what you're looking for, let me suggest a few things that are best sellers that a lot of people seem to like, and then throw in one, you know, maybe that might be a little off the wall, but you know, it might hit the right person. I do a lot of, , like little donations at some of the fairs that I do too.
I was just recently, it was at an event at the Waukesha County Expo Center and I gave out 50 little tins to the first 50 people who came to the event and seeing these ladies walking around with these bags and I'm like, Oh, what did you get? And, you know, somebody pulled it out. They're like, I got fresh cut grass.
And she's like, it's one of my favorite scents. That's not everybody's favorite scent, but I'm glad I [00:14:00] hit the right person. So it's, it's just really nice to see, you know, even how much it's already grown in the year that it's already been out, but I have so much more to do still. And I love doing customizable orders.
I'm going to actually be putting together gift baskets for Christmas that will be available at the store. I met in Hartford. I'm not sure yet if I'm going to put them online, um, just because those are a little bit harder, but if people want to order them, I can definitely customize an order for that.
Leighann Lovely: Very interesting. So, I'm sorry. I heard fresh cut grass. Yes. So where, where does somebody put that in their house? Like, is that a bathroom scent? Is that a man cave or a woman cave scent? Like where, where do we have fresh cut grass? And mind you, I'm allergic to grass. Me too. It doesn't mean I don't like the smell of it, but usually when somebody is cutting their grass.[00:15:00]
I'm running into my house closing all my windows because I know I'm about to sneeze like 20 times in a row.
Cathy Blachowski: Yep. Yep. Um, it's funny that, you know, the real thing will give you that reaction. So you do have to be very careful when you're making these that that doesn't happen to when people are. Burning them in the house.
But yeah, I love, I actually use it sometimes in my living room because when you come through our front door, you enter right into the living room. So it's almost like an extension of being outside, but it's fresh enough that you could pretty much put it anywhere. , I've never known anybody to put it in a bathroom, but yeah, Jeff or no.
Leighann Lovely: I just, I, you know, I just kind of threw that out there. Like, where does that, like, you don't set it outside because you've already got the smell outside, but where in the house does that fit? And again, to each their own. I don't know that I would burn that scent, um, again, because it would probably be on edge all the time going, wait.
Why am I not sneezing? What is [00:16:00] another off the wall? So you said bourbon, you know, the bourbon vanilla. Is there another one?
Cathy Blachowski: Another surprising one that I've done that a lot of people are like, Ooh, I would have never thought of that was an apricot chamomile. Chamomile can get really overpowering.
And I tried to cut it with something that was a little more citrus so it wouldn't be like in your face chamomile. Um, so that was another surprising concoction that I did, but I know how many people love lavender. So I actually combined lemon and lavender together too, and found out that there is a person that I know that does not like lavender at all.
She ended up leaving my booth with a lemon and lavender candle. She was just like, I don't know what you did with the lemon, but it changed the way that the lavender was. And now the lavender doesn't bother me as much. She's like, it's absolutely amazing. So I.
Leighann Lovely: Interesting.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, I just, I do a lot of really different, [00:17:00] really different kind of combinations.
But, you know, I've, I've had some winners and I've had some doozies, the doozies I burn in my own house, so nobody has to deal with those . But, um, a lot of happy accidents, in this house. So that's kind of awesome.
Leighann Lovely: The, I, you know, lemon, the, I guess. I don't know that I've ever found a lemon candle and I love the smell of lemon.
Anytime I, I'm sure everybody else does this, but anytime you're using a lemon for anything, you throw it down your garbage disposal and then it like kind of percolates through your kitchen for a long period of time. But I can imagine burning a lemon and lavender or just a lemon. I don't know this Would lemon be overwhelming just alone?
Cathy Blachowski: It can be. I actually made a lemon cello candle way back in the day and it was so underwhelming that I was like, I can't put out there. I just don't, I don't feel like I did it right. So when I was experimenting with the [00:18:00] lemon again, I was like, okay, let's just see how this one ends up. And it ended up working out just fine.
So I think if you get the right combination, um, Kind of let go of the bad things that have happened in the past with it. It, it ended up turning out pretty amazing. So very happy with that one.
Leighann Lovely: You know, I would be wildly, you know, I think that a lot of men and women have different and not for everybody, but I know that my husband and I have very different ideas of what.
A room should smell like, you know, I'm, I'm going to guess that he'd be like bourbon. Ooh, yeah. Bourbon. And, and I'm like, Ooh, lavender bourbon and lavender. I bet you we would agree on that one quite well. Cause it has that sweetness. It has that. I'm going to guess that you probably make some concoctions that my husband and I would actually agree on.
Cause I'll come home with like a blueberry scent and he's like, or a blueberry apple pie or something, or a blueberry pie. And he's like, [00:19:00] Is way too sweet. And every time I walk in the room, I want to eat.
He wants to smell pine needles year round. And I'm like, not year round Christmas only. And he, yeah, no, he year round, he's like, no, I just love the sun. This is the only, and I'm like, ah, but I'm going to guess that, you know, you probably are able to come up with some, some pretty awesome smells that would appease us both.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, actually, there's a couple of different sense that I've noticed that a lot of, um, I made it with a man's intention, but my daughter seems to absolutely love them. So it's, it's one of those things where, I think it could go either way, depending on exactly what you're looking for. So like I, mahogany teakwood is one of another, one of my best sellers,
It is a little bit as sweet, but it's very woody [00:20:00] too, but it's not like pine needle woody.
It's more like, it just smells like wood and spice. And that is something that. I've noticed whether you're a man or a woman, it doesn't really matter. They, everybody seems to love it. And it's one of the ones that you can find pretty much almost anywhere. So yeah, it's, I've also.
done a couple other ones that are a little bit more earthy, a little bit more grounded. So that men can be like, Oh yeah, this is totally, I can put this in my man cave. Right.
Leighann Lovely: Well, and when you say that, I think, Oh my God, cedar. Like I, I have a cedar chest, um, a very large cedar chest. And every time I open it, I'm like, I can just stick my head in here and just breathe in the smell of cedar.
Like, I love it.
Cathy Blachowski: One of my favorite woods to smell. Yep.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah, it's just, oh, that, that smell, mm, I don't know where I would put it.
Cathy Blachowski: In your bedroom.
Leighann Lovely: In my bedroom. Yeah. I mean, I, I really, honestly, I would put that, I could put that smell anywhere. I don't know how much [00:21:00] my, my daughter would love it. She's six.
She'd probably be like, mom, what is that? You know,
Cathy Blachowski: learn to love it too. You never know. Right.
Leighann Lovely: Right. Right now she's obsessed with spraying her hair with a smell of cupcake. I'm like,
Cathy Blachowski: uh. Oh. And she would probably love most of the things that I have that are sweet. Like I do a birthday cake and a carrot cake and a blueberry muffin and a apple pie, a cider doughnut, like all of those food ones she would probably really thoroughly enjoy.
I also have a buttermilk pancakes one that seems to be a real kick with the kids. So.
Leighann Lovely: That that's see, that's the perfect one for like a Sunday morning, lazy day where you just want to curl on, like in winter where you want to curl up and just have that sweet like morning under a heap of blankets and snowing outside.
And you're like, yeah, I just love the smell of morning breakfast and coffee and pancakes. Yeah.
Cathy Blachowski: Yup. [00:22:00] Yup. No calories with these. So it's even more.
Even better. Yeah. Smell it, but have no calories. No, there's no, there's no regret after burning this candle. There's no.
Leighann Lovely: So I'm going to, I'm going to hit you with a couple of harder questions here. If you could give advice to, you a year ago when you were first starting out, what do you think that would be, uh, or what advice would you give yourself when it comes to, you know, starting this all out?
Cathy Blachowski: I think the biggest thing was I was really
Cathy Blachowski: I was really afraid that I was the only one out there that was dealing with the issues that I have and that people wouldn't accept what I was doing. There are a ton of candle makers out there and to be able to differentiate yourself, like I was getting into a [00:23:00] business that.
There's a lot out there. Etsy, I think has at least over 50 vendors and I'm like, I'm not going to compete with them. Like, that's just, that's not, those aren't my people. Like, my people are the ones who, you know, come see me and know me and know that I am truly putting out something that is spectacular and something that they can stand behind.
 I just, I'm not afraid to fail, which is one of the things that mostly everybody says I've failed so many times in my life that that's one of the things that doesn't that I have no fear of that. I just jump right in and if it doesn't work it doesn't work it's not a big deal but I was really, I was really more worried that I wasn't going to be able to find the right people who are looking for this type of item that doesn't want, you know, you know, I mean, you're not going to pay much more for what I've got.
Cathy Blachowski: Actually, you're going to pay less and it's going to last a lot longer. But then how do you like grab those people to try and keep them and not go to those big box stores, even [00:24:00] though they're on sale for 80 percent off and you're still spending a lot of money on it and getting not the best quality. So I was just more worried about not finding, finding the right crowd.
Leighann Lovely: And so what advice would you, would you say to that person?
Cathy Blachowski: I think I would just tell myself, don't worry about that. You know, the people are going to come to you and the more you get out there and the more you get to talk to people, the more they're going to see the value in what you have. And once they take one home with them, they're going to absolutely love it.
And I don't really have to worry about not being able to find that person anymore.
Leighann Lovely: That's, that's amazing advice and, and advice that others need to listen to, because I think that when we sweat the small stuff, when we're starting out, it can become debilitating if we don't find a mentor or somebody to say, Hey, there's others who understand exactly [00:25:00] what you're feeling may not be, you know, in the same way, because I'm not making a candle, but You know, I'm still, I'm still.
Putting myself out there with something, but that's, that is really, you know, Kathy, really good advice. And I, and I love that. And we, I fail every day a little bit here, a little bit there, but it's not about the failures. It's about the way that we overcome them.
Cathy Blachowski: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the more you fail, the more opportunity you get to make yourself a better, not a better person necessarily, but just know.
You just have a little bit different perspective on things. It's not like you're, it's, you're not sweating the small stuff anymore. It's more like, okay, what's the next big thing that I'm going to have to deal with? Let's go. Let's take it on. I'm ready.
Leighann Lovely: And I don't really consider things failures if you're learning from [00:26:00] it so that you're not repeating.
Cathy Blachowski: Right.
Leighann Lovely: I mean,
Cathy Blachowski: sanity comes with repetitions. If you stop repeating the same thing, eventually you're going to get a different result. And that's just what it is. It's a whole different mindset. You just have to teach yourself that there is a different way of doing things, that there is a different way to look at things.
And there are so many things out there that you could be stressing about. Don't, don't stress those, you know, like just get through it, move on, move forward, move forward. And everything is going to be gravy after that.
Leighann Lovely: And so if you had advice to give to a younger Not even a younger. Let's, let's say somebody who's like, Hey, I've got this cool idea.
 I want to go out because we are in, in the right now, the world of startups and the world of people wanting to go out on their own and try new things. What advice would you give to that, that young, that old, that [00:27:00] any entrepreneur, I keep saying young because I think, Oh yeah, the young, but there are, there are people older than me who are like, yeah, I'm going to start my own thing.
I'm going to do my own thing. And, and I will put the caveat that it is not for the faint of heart. I mean, if I if I had to give advice, there's a book we could we could all sit down and write a book together of the things that you do not know that you are going to eventually know. What advice would you give to that that person who's Got that huge light bulb following them around, thinking about going out on their own.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah. The first thing I would say is don't, don't tiptoe around it. If there's something that you really want to do, go do it because now is the time. If you're thinking about it now, do it now. And there are so many other ways that, you know, you can reach out to people in order to help. So the second thing I would be, it would be like, first, do it now.
Go out and do it. And secondly, how can I help you? I am that type of person who wants to be involved in [00:28:00] as much as I can. I've done a ton of volunteer work. I was a former Girl Scout leader, former volleyball coach. I just absolutely love being able to help people. And if somebody wants to start something and they have that drive and they have that, that will to succeed.
All I want to do is be a part of it somehow if it's mentorship, if it's just being there to ask questions if it's literally to help set up something. It's, it's something that I want to be a part of and I think that goes a really long way when you can have somebody who's behind you, no matter what you're doing, even if I don't know anything about it, because I do that all the time too.
Um, it's, it's one of those things that you just have to just, you just got to take it and you got to go with it. There's, there's no turning back.
Leighann Lovely: Awesome. Now, if somebody wants to check out your product, I'm going to give you your 30 second shameless pitch. So if somebody wants to find your products, I want to know where, you know, are you running any specials that are coming up?
Are [00:29:00] you, you know, what is, what is your 30 second shameless pitch? Give me that. And, um, we'll kind of wrap up here.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, so, you can find me at yellowleafcandlecompany. com. I'm actually going through a website redesign right now too, so it may look a little different if you've been there already.
 I have an events tab on that page as well that shows you everywhere that I am going to be found in the state of Wisconsin. Um, so this upcoming weekend I'll be in Okachi, the following weekend I'm in Franklin, Then in November, I'm going to be heading out to Rio and Juno, and then I'm going to be in Jackson again.
So I'm kind of all over the place. Uh, Beaver Dam, I'm going to be hitting up once, probably another one in Sheboygan. So if you can't find me, you're not looking real hard, but yeah, you can find everything is already, like I said, on my website, you can pretty much reach out to me at any time. I'm on social media as well.
I have, you know, a Facebook page. I use LinkedIn. So. Just if you're, looking for [00:30:00] something, just, just let me know and I'll get it to you.
Leighann Lovely: Yeah. And in the show notes, you will be able to find, Kathy's website. You'll be able to find her LinkedIn. So, go check it out. she has amazing products and Kathy, this has been such an amazing conversation.
I really appreciate you opening up to us and telling us a little bit about your background and your entrepreneurial journey.
Cathy Blachowski: Yeah, it's thank you for having me. It's something that again, I would have been fearful of, three weeks ago. But when, when you sit down and think about it, it's not so bad when you're talking about something that you believe in, it makes it a very easy conversation to have.
And I just want to know, I want to let everybody know out there that there is something out there that you can do, you know, that would be better for you. There are healthier options out there for you and they are not necessarily more expensive than what you're doing. So just keep that in mind, wherever you go, there are always other options.
 
Leighann Lovely: That. And yeah, make sure that you check out the website.
Cathy Blachowski: Thank you, [00:31:00] Leighann