Selfless Leadership Inspires and Empowers

On this episode of Love Your Sales, we delve into the power of leadership with retired Lieutenant Colonel Oakland McCulloch. Oak shares insights from his 40+ years of experience in various leadership roles, emphasizing the importance of selfless leadership and the impact it has on team building and trust. We explore how interpersonal connections and understanding people are the foundation of effective leadership, whether in high-stress environments like combat or the corporate boardroom. Oak's anecdotes and advice underline the significance of genuine human interactions over transactions, shedding light on how leaders can inspire and empower those around them. Join us as we uncover the keys to unlocking your leadership potential and fostering an environment of trust and collaboration, thus enhancing your sales and overall success.

 

Contact Oakland –

Website - https://www.ltcoakmcculloch.com/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakland-mcculloch-34293256/

 

Special Thank you to our Sponsor Genhead – www.genhead.com

 

Robb Conlon – Intro and outro – Westport Studio - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/

 

The Brave Ones – Instrumental Version Song by Jan Sanejko - https://artlist.io/royalty-free-music/song/the-brave-ones/119489

 

Leighann Lovely: Welcome to another episode of Love Your Sales. Today, I am excited because I am joined by retired Lieutenant Colonel Oak McCullough. He is an internationally recognized keynote speaker and author of the 2021 released Your leadership legacy, becoming the leader you were meant to be both his leadership talk and his book are based on his 40 plus years of leadership experience in combat, peacekeeping operations, [00:02:00] disaster relief operation, and in the boardroom

Oak highlights principles that will benefit today's leaders and inspire the leaders of tomorrow in any profession and at any level of leadership. Okay. I'm so happy that you are joining me today, um, to not only talk about, you know, I want to learn a little bit about your book. I haven't had the chance to read it, but.

I've already downloaded it on my, um, audio, um, to listen to that, but also to, um, you know, learn more about how you're impacting the world now with the experience that you have. So

Oakland McCulloch: welcome. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on the show. I've been looking forward to this.

Leighann Lovely: Yeah. So why don't we, you know, first, 2021 let's, let's talk about that for, for a moment.

Oakland McCulloch: Yeah, I've always wanted I, you know, for years and years and years, I wanted to write that book and I just never did. Um, and, and it really is. I mean, there's no talk of theory in this [00:03:00] book at all. It's all everyday things that everyday leaders can do to not only improve their leadership skills and abilities, but also to.

Help empower the people they have the privilege to lead, and it is a privilege to be better, not only workers, but also better people. And, you know, I said, I've been given my leadership talk for, I don't know, 20 years or so. Um, and I always wanted to write this book and then, you know, I was at a, an event at our church, um, my wife and I and her mom and a couple of people who live in the condo, we went there and it was kind of a slap motivational slash, how do we revitalize the Catholic church kind of talk?

And it was three hours long and, and now the guy that was talking, talked for 45 minutes and he'd take a 15 minute break. And every time he took a break. I'd go up and talk to him because he was doing what I wanted to do, get out and talk to people. And, and he gave me a bunch of good things. And then at the [00:04:00] very end, we got done talking and he turned around to leave.

And then he stopped and he turned around and he said, Oak, have you written a book? And I said, no, but I'm thinking about it. And he said, stop thinking about it and write it. So I went home that night, wrote out the table of contents, and then I started the next day. That was the 16th of February, and I published it on the 12th of February the next year.

Leighann Lovely: Oh, wow. So a simple,

Oakland McCulloch: I just had to have permission,

Leighann Lovely: I guess, right? Well, and sometimes that's what it takes, right? Somebody's finally saying, Hey, you need to finally do this. You need to do this. Um, and maybe it's not necessarily permission, but that that confirmation from somebody saying. Yeah. You, you need to do this.

Oakland McCulloch: Yeah. And that's kind of what he was saying. You know, the, the message just from the short talks we had during that time, he, he, he said, look, you got a message that needs to get out there. You need to write that book. Well,

Leighann Lovely: that's awesome. [00:05:00] That's awesome. So you obviously have had a wealth of experience in leadership positions in combat, which is at a very, Yeah.

I've never been in combat, so I'm going to, I'm going to make some assumptions here. Um, I'm going to assume that these are high stress. Yeah. They're, um, you know, you've got a lot of people looking at you for answers, for guidance, for direct orders. Um, and, and it sounds like, you know, you also lower stress, you know, positions where it's more.

And when I say lower stress, you know, a boardroom compared to combat, obviously for some people,

Oakland McCulloch: there's still stress, but correct. It's just

Leighann Lovely: completely different, right? When you come back, you [00:06:00] know, when you, when you were comparing, you know, we're not comparing apples to apples here. We're comparing obviously, you know, a banana to a, an apple and it's a completely different shape.

So tell me a little bit about what you. Learned one about yourself. And two, about just, I guess, the human condition when it comes to how you process in those different leadership roles.

Oakland McCulloch: Right. So, I guess what I learned about myself, and I've had people tell me that absolutely this is true about me, is I quickly realized that, You have to maintain your call, no matter what's going on around you, you got to maintain your calm, at least outward.

Even if you're panicked on the inside, you can't show that because the people that you lead are going to take their cue from you. And if you're panicked, they're going to panic. If you're calm, they're going to remain at least a little more calm. Um, so [00:07:00] I think that if nothing else, that was one of the things that I really learned, um, about myself and, and, and try.

Always to maintain that calm demeanor, no matter what's going on around me. Um, and I think, you know, the thing I learned about leadership in all those situations that in the last 40 years is two things, number one, leadership is about people. Plain and simple. It's not about flow charts. It's not about organizational charts.

It's about one to one individual connections and people. And the second part of that is that people aren't going to follow you, especially in dangerous situations. situations if they don't trust you. Uh, and so I talk a lot about what I call 360 degree trust that, you know, until people trust you, you may be the leader by name, by title, but you're not really the leader until they trust you.

[00:08:00] Wow.

Leighann Lovely: And, and I want to, I want to take a second to really think about that because we have a great deal of people in leadership roles that many feel And reality is the way we feel, right? Our feelings drive our decisions. Our feelings drive the way that what drive, what we do, how we react. So the way that people make us feel is really, it becomes the reality that we live in.

And so if you have a leader who makes you feel that you have to do something versus want to do something big difference, Correct. And so you're talking, you're, you're, you're very much talking to the, and I'm going to bring this back to, you know, the sales. If you have a leader that you've become, you've come to know, come to like, and come to trust.

[00:09:00] You've just sold your entire team on buying into. 100%,

Oakland McCulloch: 100%, you know, and, and that's 1 of the things that I, that I see that I, that I always try to emphasize to people because as I go around and talk to people, organizations and companies and, uh, whatever 1 of the things that I, I notice is that there's no community there.

There's not really a team, there's people who come to work and they draw their paycheck and they go home, but they, you know, they may not even know anybody, they may know the person's name because they send them an email, but they don't know that person if they passed them in the hallway, they might not even know who they are.

And I always say, you know, You got to build a team, a community, um, in your organization. And it starts with you, the leader. If you don't get out there and make that effort and show people how important it is, then they're not going to make that effort. And one of the things I always tell people, leaders is a [00:10:00] couple of ways to make that happen.

Number one, get out from behind your desk and get out there and walk around and. Actually, talk to people and get to know them. The more they get to know you, the more they're going to trust you. Now, that goes 2 ways. You know, if you get to know them, they're going to get to know they got to, you got to let them get to know you.

So you got to feel comfortable with that. But, but that that's huge and there's a couple of ways to do that. Number 1, get out from behind your desk, walk around number 2, I tell, especially young leaders, but all leaders that I get a chance to talk to, you should make it a goal. Every day to go out and find one person in your organization that you are responsible for, find one person and find out one new thing about that person.

Every day, just one, just one person, one thing, and not about work. You can eventually bring it back to work if you want, but find out something personal about that person. Find out their spouse's name, their kid's name, what [00:11:00] sports do their kids play? What's their hobbies? What do they like? What don't they like?

Those kinds of things. And the more you do that. the more trust and community you're going to build. And then I also tell them, um, you know, if you're lucky, I had a boss who retired a three star general, and he said, Oak, never, ever, ever turned down a chance to go get your own cup of coffee. He said, I don't care how high up you get in your organization, always go get your own cup of coffee.

He said, for two reasons. Number one, first of all, it shows everybody that works for you that you're no better than they are. You got to go get your own cup of coffee, just like they do. And number two, If you're lucky, you got two or three different ways to get to the coffee pot and back to your office and along the way, stop and talk to people.

Leighann Lovely: And that's amazing, brilliant advice. Because so often we, that are below that leader or who are, you know, looking up to that, [00:12:00] Um, it goes back to, um, you know, the idea that these people who are in leadership positions are looking down and making decisions that they, and, and often you hear this from manufacturing floors, you hear this from, and they're like, well, how are they making these decisions?

Do they even know what we're doing? Do they even understand the grind that we have to go through? You know, how are they? And so when you. When you actually see that they're just as human that they put their pants on exactly the same way that we do that. Oh, okay. This this is a human being just like me.

That's where that connection

Oakland McCulloch: begins. It does. And until until you make that connection, it is just people coming to work and drawing a paycheck and going home. Yeah, yeah. One, one. So that's between you and the person, the people you are leading. And then I'd say, look, you also got to build that team where everybody in your organization trusts everybody else.

That's that [00:13:00] part of that 360. It's not just the people you lead trusting you. You got to trust the people that you lead. And then the people in the organization have to trust each other as well. And there's a couple of ways to make that happen. Have some events, you know, social events or lunches, you know, to where people have to come together and talk and, and get to know each other.

And, and that's huge. Um, and then the second, the last part of that 360 degree trust is. If you're in a business, you got to build a relationship with the people outside your organization. Cause nobody's going to do business with you if they don't trust you. And I hope you don't do business with somebody else.

Just for the money, if you don't trust them. So it really is that 360 degree trust. And it, if you're missing any one of those, then your organization is not going to be running as effective and efficiently as it could be.

Leighann Lovely: [00:14:00] Right. And that's, this lends right to sales. I mean, it directly into. Um, the whole idea and the whole idea that everybody, and this goes back to my very first episode when I talked with Sarah Bauer about everybody is selling at any given time.

We start, we start selling from the time that we're infants. We just don't know it. My daughter negotiates with me on a regular basis about how, you know, she's going to get ice cream if she eats this one last bite.

Oakland McCulloch: Sorry. Yeah. Anybody, you know, at my last 12 years, I just retired in one October, but the last 12 years I was recruiting for army ROTC and I had a bunch of buddies who were doing the same thing and, and I had one of them one time tell me, well, I'm not a salesman.

I said, bull, you absolutely are. We all are. We all [00:15:00] sell every day. I don't care what, who you are, what profession you are. You know, it is all about that. And you can't do it if people don't trust you.

Leighann Lovely: Right. And I hear that people, I, what you just said, I'm not a salesman. Well, let's, let's really take a look.

Every, everybody who becomes a parent becomes a salesperson the moment that child is born. is born, but they have been, they have been their whole life, but it becomes even more apparent when they become a parent. Um, so let's, let's talk about that because you and I had talked about, um, you know, the difference between leadership and unselfish leadership.

And let's, let's talk a little bit about the unselfish leader As a sales leader, because I think this is ever more important because in an industry as a salesperson, those people who choose [00:16:00] sales as a career are wildly competitive. Sure.

Oakland McCulloch: And that's a good thing.

Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. It is a good thing. We need to be, we need to have, and some people are not driven a hundred percent by the money.

They're driven by a competitive edge for something else. But a lot of salespeople are like, yeah, if I can write my own, my own check, Hey, that's what I want to do. But many of, you know, some of these salespeople are then pushed into leadership and still have that selfish, still have that. So let's talk about the key.

Components of being a. Good sales

Oakland McCulloch: leader. Yeah. So I, I think I, I'm 100%. Look, there's nobody more competitive than I am. I mean, I don't care if I'm playing old maid with my nine year old daughter or 10 year old granddaughter, I want to win. I, you know, that, that just, I, I, I was raised, uh, that you [00:17:00] want to win.

Um, my father literally beat that into me as a kid. Um, so I, I, I think nothing wrong with that. That's that's what that's what created this great country. We live in this competitiveness. Um, and that's okay. I think the key to it is to be the selfish leader selfless leader is to understand that. Okay. It's okay to win, but it's also you got to include everybody else just because you win doesn't mean somebody else can't win as well.

They may not win at the same level, but you're raising people along the way. Um, to make them better as well. And in the end, that's going to make your organization better. Not only are you winning, but if everybody else is winning and they're getting a little bit better at everything they do, that's, in the end, that's going to make your organization better.

And, and one of the things that I'm always, I'm adamant about, look, we all have egos. Anybody who tells you they don't have an ego is lying to you. We all [00:18:00] have an ego and that's okay because that's what drives us to be the best we can be at whatever we're doing. So that there's no, nothing wrong with having an ego.

The good selfless leaders understand when to put that ego aside. That it isn't about them anymore. It's about somebody else. It's about the team. It's about an individual on the team and the good leaders, in my opinion, the ones out there that are good leaders know when to put that ego aside.

Leighann Lovely: And how, you know, again, you know, competitive land here is like, yes, I just won this.

And, and there have been times where you get so hyper focused. So have there been times where you're like, Oh, Perfect example that you gave, you know, you're playing, you said Old Maid with your 13 year old. And there have been times where my daughter isn't, you know, crying and I'm just one and I'm like, yeah, I just won.

And I'm like, [00:19:00] oh crap, she's crying, but she has to learn to lose. We all have to, you can't, you can't, you know, pretend like, oh, I'm going to throw this game in order to win, you know, in order to become as competitive, you know, you have to learn What it's like to, to lose, to fail.

Oakland McCulloch: That's what, that's what drives you to be better.

Cause you don't like that feeling. So, so, so you, you want to get better so that you can. And you know, one of the things that I, that I, I'm, I believe in is that when you beat somebody or you win, then it becomes a, a teaching moment. You know, whether it's my 10 year old granddaughter or it's somebody that.

That I'm leading when they don't do something as well as they could have, then that becomes a teaching moment. And, you know, I, I'm a firm believer. I, I don't believe you learn from experience. You learn from reflection, reflection on that experience. Yes. That's how you learn. [00:20:00] So if you don't win a game, then you stop and you say, okay.

What went wrong? Where did I not do the best? I could become the best I could be or do the best I could do with that. And I teach my grandchildren that I say, okay, you did well, but here's, you could do better if you did this. And I used to use it with my, the people that work for me as well. I'd say, okay, this is what we were supposed to do.

This is what we did now. Let's sit down and figure out how we make up that difference what we were supposed to do versus what we did. And if you do that, then it doesn't become I'm better than you are. It's okay. We did well here. I did well here, but you can do as well. We just got to figure out that difference and you coach them.

And again, you know, the thing that I always tell leaders is you can't be selfish. You can't say, okay, it's about [00:21:00] me. Cause it isn't about you, you know, it, it isn't about how much money you made this year, it's about making everybody else better. And if you made a. amount of money this year, if you make everybody else on your team better, you're going to make even more next year.

And that's okay. Nothing wrong with that. That's I'm not against making money, but we also got to remember that we got to make everybody else on the team better as well. And if you do that, I promise you your organization is going to get better because the better you make the people that you're leading, the better your organization is going to be.

And in the end, you're going to get what you want, but you got it for the right reasons. Not because you were selfish. But because you help somebody else become a better person and a better worker,

Leighann Lovely: right? So I have a story for you about a motivational speech that I had a old, um, colleague of mine and that I overheard him giving, and I want to get your opinion on this of the motivational speech starts [00:22:00] off with, I have a really big house.

I have a really nice car. I have this. I have that. Would you like to have that stuff? Yeah. And then goes on to say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If you just do a little bit better, you can work your way to having this stuff.

Oakland McCulloch: My opinion, that's horrible. Um, so, so one of the things I, I've had my hand in commissioning over 580 second lieutenants for the United States army and for this country.

And the thing I always told every single one of them is. Look, leadership, it's, it's about selfless leadership that I believe that and those are the best leaders. Selfless service is what it's all about. I said, think of it this way. It is not about you [00:23:00] and yet it's all about you. It's not about you and the title you get or the privileges you get or that you get better pay and you live in a nicer house and drive a nicer car.

Let's face it, leaders get those things sometimes and that's okay. As long as that's not the only reason you want to be the leader. If it is, go do something else because you're never going to be a good one. It is all about you and how you treat and empower and coach and mentor the people you have the privilege to lead.

And if you remember that piece of it, and again, you know, because I, especially 18, 19, 20 year old kids, they'd say, well, I want that next promotion. I want my next pay raise. And I'd always say, well, look, you can get both. You can, if you take care of people and make them better, they're going to make your organization better, which means you're, you're going to get your promotion.

You're going to get your pay raise, but again, you get it for the right reasons, not because you were selfish, but because you helped other people.

Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. And that was an early on [00:24:00] mistake in my own career is that

Oakland McCulloch: we all make that mistake.

Leighann Lovely: Right. Right. And I remember my boss and exactly, as you said, I was, this was in the HR realm where, and my boss said, you need, you need to make a point to get up from your desk.

And walk around the building and learn who the people are that you serve working in HR. And I was like, well, if they need something, they can come to me. And she's like, you're not listening to me. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? Like, I don't want to go bother them while they're working. And she's like, they need to know that human resources.

And this was way before, you know, 2006, seven, eight, when. You know, this was when we actually like took care of our people and we really wanted to know our people. And we really want to, before HR departments is slim, you know, slim down to, you know, the person that was taking care of everything and didn't have time for anything.

And now we have people leaders [00:25:00] and we have, you know, anyways, and, and I was just missing the point. Like, why do you want me to go waste my time talking to people? Why do you, I don't get it. Um, yeah. And she was a great leader trying to instill in me the importance of knowing your people. Yeah,

Oakland McCulloch: again, and just as important than knowing you.

Correct. And especially in today's world where it's all text messages and emails and phone calls and people don't get out of their office and they don't go meet people, you know, and I, I've had Organizations, he said, you know, my guy, my guys and gals just don't communicate. Well, face to face. He said, you know, they send text messages, they email, they phone call.

But if John walked down the hall, they wouldn't even know who John is. They know his name because they send all those things to him, but they, they don't know who he is. And I said, well, there's a way to fix that. I said, every Friday, make in your office. Now, outside your office, I got it. You got to send [00:26:00] emails, phone calls, text messages, but inside your office building on Friday, there are no emails, no phone calls, no text messages.

If you want to talk to John, you get up out of your chair and you go find John and you go talk to him. And he said, and he implemented that. And he said, Within a month, what an amazing difference. People would pass in the hallway and they'd say, Hey John, how are you today? And they'd actually talk to each other and they knew who each other were.

And it's that simple. That's part of building that community. Building that trust. Because if I send you a text, that doesn't mean you're going to trust me. You don't know me. But if I see you in the hallway and you know who I am, and we talk a little bit, then that trust starts to build. And that's You can't build a team without trust.

Vince Lombardi, probably the not probably he was the greatest football coach that ever coached. He said, Look, a team is not a group of people who play together. The team is a group of people who trust each [00:27:00] other. And it's pick a profession. It doesn't matter. It's the same no matter what profession it is.

Leighann Lovely: Back in the day. I mean, we had a we had a 50 plus group of people. And that, you know, that was at the beginning. Um, it was a company that I worked for recruiting. We knew every single person in the building. I mean, we, when we needed something, we stood up and we walked over and we talked to him. This was a very large, you know, it was all the cubicles and everybody sat in a cube farms everywhere.

It was, you know, you, They're, they're right there. Stand up, walk over, talk to them. Why are you going to send an email and then wait two hours to get the answer that you need when they're literally sitting three cube farms away?

Oakland McCulloch: Absolutely. I had that experience. I was in the army. I, I was working with a guy and he was in charge and, and I, I worked for him and literally there was a wall between us and there was a doorway.[00:28:00]

So I, you had to go through my office to get to his office just happened to be there and there were, you know, five or six other people in that in my office as well. It wasn't just me, but literally, I mean, I was at my desk and I could look do like this and I could see him in his office. He was sending me email messages.

And finally I just said, stop. If you want something, just scream out. I can answer you. I mean, you don't have to scream. We can talk like this and I can answer you. Stop sending me email messages. Right. I mean, we've gotten to that point where, where we have forgotten the importance of face to face. Human reaction of relationship and you see it, especially in this younger generation where they think they believe I've read polls and articles where they believe somebody they've met online and never seen in person is just as good a friend to them as the person That's sitting right next to them.

And we got to [00:29:00] get away from that. We got to get back to the, now I'm not saying that's not important. We, we, you know, we wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for this technology, but this does not replace face to face relationship. And especially in a business where that is so huge. And inside your organization and out, if you're a salesperson and you're not going out and actually seeing the people you're trying to sell something to, I guarantee you, I'm going to sell to them before you do, because I'm going to go see them and I'm going to build that relationship.

Well,

Leighann Lovely: absolutely. And I've heard a lot of people say, you know, cold calling is dead. I've heard a lot of people say, Oh, that's a thing in the past. You're, you're not going to be able to. And I'm like, yeah, but have you ever sold a large Have you ever made a large sale, made a full commitment and gotten a full commitment from somebody that you've never physically met or at least had a face to face conversation with?

Yes, I've had sales via zoom. It happens now because [00:30:00] again, I I've sold internationally, but it's through a text message or through just emailing. No, I've never had it like close because it comes down to, well, How do you trust somebody? How do you trust that that person is even who they say they

Oakland McCulloch: are?

Exactly. Well, you know, again, I recruited for the last 12 years at a university here for Army ROTC and, and I was pretty successful. I was recruiter of the year in 2019. I brought in 158 freshmen into our program and that's bigger than some, ROTC, most ROTC programs are. And every year I was bringing in 100 to 150 freshmen.

And somebody asked me one day how I did it. I said, first of all, I, I do send out an email and I explain me and the program and, and, uh, and then, then I follow that up with a phone call. And then I try to get them to [00:31:00] come down for a visit. And I always told people, look, if I can get that young man or that young lady in my office with their parents, that's even better.

But even without the parents, if I can get them into my office, they're coming to my school. Guaranteed, I don't lose people, um, except to academies. That was a hard one to compete with. But other than that, I mean, I brought, they came, came to our program and it's all about that personalized thing. You know, the email set it up.

Then a phone call and then hopefully, uh, either a zoom or a face to face if I could get a face to face, it was, it was a done deal. That's

Leighann Lovely: awesome. And that again is about once you figure out and see now my sales brain is working, but once you figure out that process, once you figure out what works. And it's never going to just be an email.

I mean, I can email somebody 15 [00:32:00] times and usually if I have to email them 15 times, they're going to email me back saying, stop emailing me.

Oakland McCulloch: Yeah. If I wanted, I'll email you. Yeah. Correct. And I was careful. You know, I didn't over. Try to sell on the first thing. I just said this. Look, you're interested.

Obviously, you applied for an Army ROTC scholarship and applied. Put our school down as one of your choices. So here's what we have to offer. If you're interested, let's hop on a phone call. Right. And almost all of them would at least hop on a phone call. That doesn't mean I got all those, but I, at least I had an opportunity that just takes me another step toward building that relationship.

And then we go from there. Um, so I, I think, you know, you got to figure out what works for you. No doubt about it, because there are no cookie cutter solutions. Let's be honest. No, it's all based on your personality and what you're trying to sell and what Well, you know, but you, but [00:33:00] I don't care what it is.

You got to build the relationship because if you don't, somebody that does is going to outsell you. I promise you 100%.

Leighann Lovely: Absolutely. It all comes down to the relationship. It all comes down to the relationship and the relationship with your community and the referrals that your community and trust. I mean, if you can get a referral, you've already has, you already have that buffer of built in trust.

That's right. And then, you

Oakland McCulloch: know, Somebody trusted you or they wouldn't have referred you.

Leighann Lovely: Correct, correct. Well, we are coming to time. So I want to give you the opportunity for your 30 seconds shameless pitch. Um, so, you know, go ahead, plug

Oakland McCulloch: yourself. So, um, I, I, I retired from my day job one October. Now I'm concentrating on getting out and talking to as many people as I can as a keynote speaker.

So I talk about leadership. I talk about again, everyday things. I don't talk about. Theory, and I custom build every single keynote to what you want. [00:34:00] Um, I can honestly say I've never given 2 talks that were exactly the same. Um, and if you want to get in touch with me, I've got my website is LTCOMccullough.com and on there, it's got all my social media. It's got my cell phone number. It's got my email address. Get in touch with me and I'd love to have that conversation with you.

Leighann Lovely: Awesome. And your, um, contact information will be in the show notes so that if somebody wants to reach out, um, I know that you have, you have quite a few speaking engagements coming up, actually.

So, um, that is awesome. But if somebody does want to reach out to Oak, please check the show notes and you can, um, find his links there. Oak, it's been such an amazing, excuse me, I'm losing my voice. It's been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today.

Oakland McCulloch: Yeah, well, I appreciate it.

I, you know, and you always know when, when you're having a good time because 30 minutes gets bought by like

Leighann Lovely: that. I know. I know it does. It does.